Question about an electron beam traveling through static B-fields

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of an electron beam traveling through alternating static magnetic fields, particularly in the context of undulators and cyclotrons. Participants explore the effects of magnetic field configurations on the trajectory of the electron beam, including the implications for wave-like patterns and sinusoidal paths.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a setup where an electron beam enters alternating magnetic fields, suggesting that the beam behaves similarly to one in a cyclotron, with calculations for the radius and arc length along the x-axis.
  • Another participant notes the potential for interesting effects by shaping electric and magnetic fields, questioning the practical applications of such setups.
  • Concerns are raised about the tangential velocity of the electron beam remaining constant, despite the radial forces acting on it.
  • A suggestion is made to modify the setup by using square uniform magnetic fields and injecting the beam perpendicularly, which could lead to a sinusoidal path by varying field strength continuously.
  • Participants discuss the effects of field strength gradients at the edges of alternating magnets, questioning whether this would distort the intended sinusoidal path of the beam.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the nature of the arcs produced by the magnetic fields, with some asserting that they are quarter circles rather than perfect arcs.
  • There is a proposal to adjust the magnetic field strength to match the curvature of a desired sine wave, allowing for a closer approximation of the intended path.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the effectiveness of the magnetic field configurations in achieving a sinusoidal path for the electron beam. While some agree on the potential for creating interesting effects, others highlight the challenges and limitations of the proposed setups. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the optimal configuration for mimicking a sine wave.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations related to the assumptions made about the magnetic fields and the resulting trajectories of the electron beam. There are unresolved questions about the impact of adjacent magnetic fields on the radial acceleration of the beam and the accuracy of the proposed models.

mesa
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In the figures below is a sketch of an electron beam entering alternating static magnetic fields perpendicular to that of the motion of an electron beam. This beam is injected from a 45° angle below the x-axis. Figure 1 is a representation of this and is supposed to be an illustration of a basic undulator from a synchrotron.

synchrotroncrossproductpage1_zps207b92dd.jpg


It would seem that the electron beam would behave in the same manner as in a cyclotron as it goes through each of the alternating magnetic fields with each bending the beam 90°. The radius in each magnetic field is easily calculated and this information can be used to figure out the length of this arc along the x axis. From here we simply add in the spacing between the magnets and get the λ for our beam in an undulator.

There would be some 'fringe' effect on the outer edges of each magnet (please make a correction if that is the wrong term for this application) but due to symmetry the bending of the beam would cancel out and therefore can be represented as linearly alternating beams 45° off the x-axis for calculating the period of the beams wave like pattern.

Is this correct?

*edit, after some thinking there are several approaches to setting up an undulator where the 'arc' is less than 90 degrees of a circle so this formula only applies to those that have an arc specifically of this degree. The formula will require a re-work to accommodate for differing arcs and using a period based on the length along x based of a set of alternating magnets.

*edit, and finally the formula for cyclotron radius is mv/qB not qv/mB, formula dyslexia...
 
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You can get all kinds of cute effects by carefully shaping electric and magnetic fields - yes.
The trick is getting the field ... oh, and finding an application.
 
Simon Bridge said:
You can get all kinds of cute effects by carefully shaping electric and magnetic fields - yes.
The trick is getting the field ... oh, and finding an application.

It is a very interesting device. So since I have you here, it seems all forces act radially inward on the x/y plane of the electron beam so the tangential velocity at any point is the same as the initial ve beam as well correct?

Although we can get 'cute effects' trying to produce an accurate sketch of the Bf ind with an electron beam moving at near 'c' in a semi sinusoidal pattern in one of these devices is quite challenging (fun too!)
 
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Try the same setup, but with the uniform B field bits as squares, and injecting the electron beam perpendicular to one side. Make a step-pattern of alternating direction fields to keep it going.

You can get an actual sinusiodal path by varying the field strength continuously.

The main advantage of the cyclotron setup is that you only need one magnet.

Alternating fields like that can get you edge effects - the magnets need to be close together - they will attract each others field lines. Alternatively, use smaller magnets placed farther apart.

There's all sort of stuff you can do.
Enjoy.
 
Simon Bridge said:
Try the same setup, but with the uniform B field bits as squares, and injecting the electron beam perpendicular to one side. Make a step-pattern of alternating direction fields to keep it going.

You can get an actual sinusiodal path by varying the field strength continuously.

So something like this:
synchrotroncrossproductpage2_zps06888d01.jpg


So the field gets weaker by the edges at each transition of alternating magnets due to canceling of fields which are a gradient. There really wouldn't be a perfect arc but instead one that gradually tapers off as the field gets weaker as there is less acceleration radially inward because of this.

Doesn't this effect stretch our wave in the wrong direction if we are trying to mimic a sinusoidal path for the electron beam? or did I set this up incorrectly? or am I just looking at this wrong? :P
 
mesa said:
So something like this:
[pic]That's the one :)

So the field gets weaker by the edges at each transition of alternating magnets due to canceling of fields which are a gradient. There really wouldn't be a perfect arc but instead one that gradually tapers off as the field gets weaker as there is less acceleration radially inward because of this.
It's just the same as yours from post #1 ... each arc is a quarter circle.

Doesn't this effect stretch our wave in the wrong direction if we are trying to mimic a sinusoidal path for the electron beam? or did I set this up incorrectly? or am I just looking at this wrong? :P
If you are trying to mimic a sine wave - yes of course it does. It's not a sine wave at all, just a series of quarter circles.

You can get an exact sine wave by varying the magnetic field continuously.
You can vary it in strips to get a close approximation.
The B strength determines the curvature of the path - so find the curvature of the sine wave you want to mimic and set the B fields to that function.
 
Simon Bridge said:
[pic]That's the one :)

Very good. I would imagine setups for magnet placement are all over the map depending on application. Are there many designs incorporating elctromagnets?

Simon Bridge said:
It's just the same as yours from post #1 ... each arc is a quarter circle.

Let me make sure I understand this, there would be no reduction of the radially inward acceleration even with the opposing Bf of the magnet next to it?

Simon Bridge said:
If you are trying to mimic a sine wave - yes of course it does. It's not a sine wave at all, just a series of quarter circles.

You can get an exact sine wave by varying the magnetic field continuously.
You can vary it in strips to get a close approximation.
The B strength determines the curvature of the path - so find the curvature of the sine wave you want to mimic and set the B fields to that function.

Okay, I misread your earlier post, sorry about that.
These are interesting devices.
 

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