Reconsidering a B.S. in physics

[micromass]

I just don't think it is a good idea to start calling somebody names because you disagree with them. Just call somebody out who you think made a mistake and argue about the facts.

 

[homeomorphic]

micromass, thanks for sticking up for me.

Almeisan, you have created a fake version of me in your mind that has tons opinions that I don't actually have. That's why you can't understand my point of view. To get a PhD, you have to work very hard for a very long time and not making very much money to get the degree. That's the bottom line. So, I don't see what you don't understand. It's very simple.
.

 

[Almeisan]

It is not an issue of disagreeing. I might agree with him. I have an ethical problem with the way he tries to argue. Why doesn't he just tell his honest story and leave it at that.

Not this bullshit about almost no one ever going to become a professor, the only reason why you ever need a PhD.

 

[micromass]

It is not an issue of disagreeing. I might agree with him. I have an ethical problem with the way he tries to argue. Why doesn't he just tell his honest story and leave it at that.

Not this bullshit about almost no one ever going to become a professor, the only reason why you ever need a PhD.

Because in his reasoning (which again: I disagree with), if you do something else than a professorship in math, then you're not really doing something related to your PhD anymore. Say you did you PhD in homological algebra. Then you might land a nice job which requires a PhD but which won't allow you to do homological algebra (or other pure math) again. So in his mind, the entire 4-6 years of the PhD is wasted time. Keep in mind that he really really disliked his PhD.

 

[Almeisan]

Same goes for every degree. You learn more than you need. You need 5 years to get an MSc. Then you do a thesis on something you may never need again, but you need to prove that you can do it because you don't get a high lvl job for free.

There's industry jobs that ask a math PhD and nothing less. If it is his expericen the job market is very competitive where he tried to get a job; fine. I believe him.

Don't take a statistic about the number of heads of research departments, compare it to the number of PhD graduates, then conclude these people are just trying to win a lottery. And don't tell me I misrepresent him, because he said exactly that.

For everyone it is true, the higher education you received, the bigger the risk you learned stuff you never need again.

He disliked his PhD. Fine. He is he. People make mistakes. He ended up fine. Good for him. He got a job he had zero training in, maybe thanks to his pretty face, or maybe thanks to his math PhD?

Be honest, is that too much to ask?

 

[micromass]

OK, but you don't do a math PhD just so you can land a good industry job with it. Landing a good industry job is a very good bonus, but it shouldn't be the main goal; otherwise you're going to have a bad time. You do a math PhD mainly because you either enjoy doing math or because you can get to a professorship (or equivalent) with it. Since he neither enjoyed his PhD, nor was able (or willing) to land a professorship, he sees it as wasted.

 

[Almeisan]

True, but if he had gotten a degree CompSci BSc, he may have ended up selling stuff in a computer shop or as a menial technician. And in that case he would have actually known how a compiler functions and how memory is handled.
He got a job in an area he wasn't even educated for thanks to his math PhD. His employee took a risk and it paid of for both of them. The PhD cost him 4 years and hard work, but it also saved his ass from making the wrong decision.

If all you want is a good industry job, I also wouldn't recommend doing a PhD. But, no one would. So how is it not a moot point?

Doesn't mean there aren't actually math PhD jobs in industry out there.
If you want to do math research or work on some of the most advanced math problems in industry at the few companies that actually work on those, you do need one.

And some people actually do become professors. Some undergrads posting here might win a Fields medal one day, who knows. So why doesn't he 'just' say; "If you have doubts, don't do it" or "Make sure the subject of your PhD has applications in industry, as a backup" or something along the lines.

 

[micromass]

That I agree with.

 

[atyy]

OK, but you don't do a math PhD just so you can land a good industry job with it. Landing a good industry job is a very good bonus, but it shouldn't be the main goal; otherwise you're going to have a bad time. You do a math PhD mainly because you either enjoy doing math or because you can get to a professorship (or equivalent) with it. Since he neither enjoyed his PhD, nor was able (or willing) to land a professorship, he sees it as wasted.

Well, but if most maths PhDs don't end up in mathematics, then wouldn't a good industry job be an aim of a maths PhD?

If I recall ParticleGrl's posts, her PhD experience was very different from homeomorphic's, in that she enjoyed it. What was common to both of their experiences is the good industry job took a long time to find, though it seems both managed to find one after a year or more. I am not sure I am representing her correctly, but her initial posts had reservations about doing a physics PhD because of the difficulty of the job search, but her later posts indicated that she would recommend a physics PhD but to be prepared for a very difficult job search.

 

[Mirero]

Doesn't mean there aren't actually math PhD jobs in industry out there.
If you want to do math research or work on some of the most advanced math problems in industry at the few companies that actually work on those, you do need one.

Wait, you don't need to have a job in a university to do research? That actually makes me less disappointed in my future job prospects.

Although I'm guessing it's less about actual research and more about producing useful results for the company you are working under.

 

[micromass]

Well, but if most maths PhDs don't end up in mathematics, then wouldn't a good industry job be an aim of a maths PhD?

If I recall ParticleGrl's posts, her PhD experience was very different from homeomorphic's, in that she enjoyed it. What was common to both of their experiences is the good industry job took a long time to find, though it seems both managed to find one after a year or more. I am not sure I am representing her correctly, but her initial posts had reservations about doing a physics PhD because of the difficulty of the job search, but her later posts indicated that she would recommend a physics PhD but to be prepared for a very difficult job search.

I guess it's really a very personal experience. I'm sure there are many people out there (in fact most people I know are like that) who land a job easily with a math/physics degree. Then there are homeomorphic and ParticleGrl. And there are people who enjoy a PhD and those who absolutely hate it.

I guess the advice people should take from this thread is to do a lot of research and introspection to whether a PhD is worth it for them. Not everybody is cut out for research, even though they might be smart. Being able to do research and intelligence are correlated, but they certainly don't imply each other (neither way). Finding the right advisor and research topic is pretty essential too. These are things you shouldn't take lightly, because it's going to take years of hard work.

And yes, I do think many people don't realize what they're going to do after a math PhD. Some might dream of professorship, some might just not know and go into grad school because they have no other option they like. I don't think many people in grad school have a clear idea on what to do after grad school. This is very bad though, since in your undergrad and grad years you could be preparing for later by learning useful skills (like social skills, programming skills, and so much more). Many people don't take that opportunity for many reasons. So yeah, if you end up with a math PhD and essentially no useful skills, then I'm sure you'll land a nice job, but it might not be the job you really enjoy doing or the job you really wanted.

 

[micromass]

Wait, you don't need to have a job in a university to do research? That actually makes me less disappointed in my future job prospects.

Although I'm guessing it's less about actual research and more about producing useful results for the company you are working under.

It really depends on what you mean with research. If you're talking about pure math (for example), then you essentially need a job at the university. But there are other jobs a mathematician could be doing in industry, but it won't be pure math. For example, math PhD's I've known now do research in a medical company developing imaging results.

 

[Almeisan]

Wait, you don't need to have a job in a university to do research? That actually makes me less disappointed in my future job prospects.

Although I'm guessing it's less about actual research and more about producing useful results for the company you are working under.

Of course not. And it is not just industry that does R&D, there is also research institutes, either funded with public or private money.

And besides that, there's non-research jobs that require or benefit highly from a technical PhD, like consultancy or managing a technical department.

That doesn't mean that your odds of getting a PhD job as a PhD graduate isn't lower than getting an MSc job as an MSc graduate.
Doesn't mean that a physics BSc in, especially the US, doesn't have problems. You can't expect a student to decide to go for a PhD career fresh out of high school, and it looks to me that in the US this seems to be the case.

I don't hear many convincing stories about how a physics BSc in the US prepares you for industry jobs.

 

[micromass]

You can't expect a student to decide to go for a PhD career fresh out of high school

Since you're probably not from the US: high school in the US means the school you attend to until 18. After that you go to college/university.

 

[Almeisan]

But at that point you decide your BSc, and people from the US here convince me a BSc in physics isn't a terminal degree.

Since I know in the US there isn't a mandatory internship and little focus on job competencies, I am likely to be convinced on this.
In my country, the only terminal BSc degree in physics is a technical physics degree, that educates you to be a lab technician and it involves job competencies like giving advice, negotiation, teamwork, having meetings, heavily and includes several internships where you get job experience.
When you are finished you are ready for jobs that actually exist.
You can't even enter a PhD track with this degree.

The other option is an MSc, and when you go this track and you know you won't do a PhD, you spend at least a year taking general courses that help build competencies functioning as someone with a high level education inside a company.

But as this is a physics forum and job markets inside physics vary highly and we are both discussing a math PhD specifically and a PhD in science in general, we need to be careful about this and always consider the local job market or the potential job market.

 

[micromass]

In the US, a BSc can be a terminal degree. After your BSc (which typically lasts 4 years), you can opt to go to grad school or to get a MSc. But it is also acceptable to leave academia altogether. This is in comparison to Europe, where everybody is expected to do a Masters and where quitting at your bachelors is much less acceptable.

 

[atyy]

In the US, a BSc can be a terminal degree. After your BSc (which typically lasts 4 years), you can opt to go to grad school or to get a MSc. But it is also acceptable to leave academia altogether. This is in comparison to Europe, where everybody is expected to do a Masters and where quitting at your bachelors is much less acceptable.

I'm not sure I understand Almeisan correctly, but I think what he is saying is similar in spirit to the APS recommendations for a dual degree. I don't think there are recommendations that if one does an engineering degree that one should also do a physics BS to get a good job. On the other hand, among the APS recommendations are that one does something in addition to the physics BS to get a good job - in that sense, the physics degree is only a terminal degree in name, not de facto.

 

[PhotonSSBM]

So yeah, if you end up with a math PhD and essentially no useful skills, then I'm sure you'll land a nice job, but it might not be the job you really enjoy doing or the job you really wanted.

This. A thousand times this.

People don't understand how true this is in every field. Even at an associates level like nursing (which I was in for 4 years), people get the work done in school, graduate, and assume that their degree entitles them to a job in a top tier hospital with no experience outside of clinicals. This mentality is everywhere, and it stems from the idea that you should put all your eggs in one basket, have no contemplation about backup plans or worst case scenarios and just assume that you'll be fine when school is over. I think that's what happened to the OP. He liked physics, didn't think about what would happen if it went downhill, and now he's in panic mode.

I think the same thing happens to a lot of people (definitely some people in this thread). I think homeomorphic's philosophy behind his posts are good. He knows what it's like to think you're going to get something successful going with something you love, and have reality hit you in the face, and he's just trying to let people know that it can happen. May not happen to everyone, may not even happen to most, but it happens, and more people need to be prepared for it. If you're a student and not thinking to yourself, "what would I like to do that's not this that I can learn at the same time?" you need to start right now.

To the OP, if you've somehow muddled through this, diversify your skill sets however you can. Take CS courses, learn programming on your own, find a job while you're in college, talk to your adviser and the people you love and figure something out.

 

[homeomorphic]

Almeisan, you did indeed mis-characterize my opinions again while I was gone. You claimed that I was accusing all people who want a physics PhD of playing a lottery because they all want to be professors. In fact, you added your own interpretation to what I said. So, as I said, you have an imaginary version of me in your head that is saying tons of stuff that I never said. The fact that becoming a prof is a lottery doesn't mean that people can't just go to grad school because they enjoy it, even though they know they probably won't become a professor. There's nothing wrong with deciding to do that if you have really thought it through. So, cut it out with the assumptions. Every time you read anything I wrote, just keep in mind, you are filling in the gaps and any time you do that, you are probably wrong about my actual opinion.

To me, grad school (depending on what subject we're talking about exactly, etc.) is often not what I would consider to be a good deal. The pay is probably quite a bit less than market price for a college graduate, for one. It's like paying 50 dollars for a lamp that is worth 20. That's my assessment. But if someone else thinks that it is actually worth 60 dollars, then they can be my guest and buy it. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't buy that lamp if I were them. If they disagree, that's fine.

 

[homeomorphic]

One more thing to add is that I don't know that we were very careful about the stats and where they came from and what their scope is and all that, but I think it's okay for the purposes of discussion. Just wanted to point that out, but hopefully that will be it for this thread.

 

[Rika]

I can understand homeomorphic since I've had similar experience during my BSc in Physics. I enjoyed my studies but during my thesis it turned out that I was "chasing a mirage" because in the end I didn't like doing research. I don't like programming either so after graduation I was out of options. During my BSc I realized that I really want to work in gamedev but I wasn't skilled enough to land an interesting job in industry so I went back to art school. The point is I regret studying physics and not going to art school straight after high school. I've made a mistake and wasted several years - that can make you bitter.