Refraction as an explanation for light curvature

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Discussion Overview

This discussion centers on the phenomenon of light refraction and its potential role in explaining the apparent curvature of light rays near the Earth's surface, particularly in the context of the Bedford Level experiment. Participants explore the implications of atmospheric refraction on optical observations and the perceived flatness of long water stretches.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question why light would necessarily curve downward and at a rate equal to the mean curvature of the Earth's surface, referencing Wikipedia's claims.
  • Others argue that the density gradient of air causes light to travel more slowly near the surface, leading to a downward curvature, and discuss its implications for observing phenomena like sunsets.
  • One participant expresses disagreement with the assertion that atmospheric refraction is, on average, equal to the curvature of the Earth at low altitudes and angles, suggesting that this claim is not supported by the referenced documents.
  • Another participant notes that the effects of refraction are described as erratic at low angles, challenging the idea of a consistent relationship between atmospheric refraction and Earth's curvature.
  • There is a focus on the interpretation of the Wikipedia entries, with participants analyzing the language used and the claims made regarding atmospheric refraction and its effects.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach consensus; there are multiple competing views regarding the relationship between atmospheric refraction and the curvature of the Earth, as well as the interpretation of the sources cited.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the references used, noting that the claims about atmospheric refraction and its equivalence to Earth's curvature are not explicitly supported in the cited documents. There is also mention of the variability of refraction effects at different angles.

omrit
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Wikipedia states that:
"If the measurement is close enough to the surface, light rays can curve downward at a rate equal to the mean curvature of the Earth's surface. In this case, the two effects of assumed curvature and refraction could cancel each other out and the Earth will appear flat in optical experiments."

My question is -- why would the light curve necessarily downward, and why would it curve at the rate equal to the mean curvature of the Earth?
 
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omrit said:
Wikipedia states that:
"If the measurement is close enough to the surface, light rays can curve downward at a rate equal to the mean curvature of the Earth's surface. In this case, the two effects of assumed curvature and refraction could cancel each other out and the Earth will appear flat in optical experiments."

My question is -- why would the light curve necessarily downward, and why would it curve at the rate equal to the mean curvature of the Earth?
Do you have a reference more specific than "wikipedia says"? The article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction does not say such a thing.

The density gradient of air means that, if all other things are equal, light travels more slowly near the surface where the atmosphere is most dense. That causes a downward curve. If that downward curvature were greater than or equal to the curvature of the Earth's surface then we would not see the sun set (we would, instead, expect to see it fade out to an orange glow and then to nothing as the viewing path through the atmosphere becomes longer and longer).
 
Thanks. The Wikipedia entry I took this from is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Level_experiment
It claims that this effect (light rays curving downward at a rate equal to the mean curvature of the Earth's surface) can "explain" why long water stretches (like in the Bedford Level experiment) seem flat, rather than taking the curvature of the Earth. So I understand from your reply that you disagree?
 
omrit said:
Thanks. The Wikipedia entry I took this from is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Level_experiment
It claims that this effect (light rays curving downward at a rate equal to the mean curvature of the Earth's surface) can "explain" why long water stretches (like in the Bedford Level experiment) seem flat, rather than taking the curvature of the Earth. So I understand from your reply that you disagree?
I disagree with a claim that atmospheric refraction is, on average, equal to the curvature of the Earth at sufficiently low altitudes and viewing angles. However, that is not a claim that is made on the page in question.

If you chase the refererence from Wiki, it is to a document on celestial navigation. That document does not support a claim that atmospheric refraction is, on average, equal to the curvature of the Earth at sufficiently low viewing angles. At various places, it does point out that the effects of refraction are most erratic at low angles.

On close reading, the Wiki page that you point to explaining the negative result of the Bedford Level experiment also does not quite claim that atmospheric refraction is, on average, equal to the curvature of the Earth at sufficiently low viewing angles. It only claims that refraction can attain such rates of curvature.
 

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