Shiba dog's DNA found to be most similar to the Wolf but....

[Pleonasm]

What's the difference between a gene resembling a wolf gene vs a gene that is a wolf gene? Does a change of one nucleotide mean that the gene is no longer a wolf gene? How similar do they need to be, given that there is often variability even within individuals of the same species/breed?

What's the difference between code similar to a computer vs the actual code? One is the computer, the other might not produce any computer operations at all, or very ineffecient ones.

No dog breed is technically more related to the wolf if none of their targetted structures are verbatim copies of the wolf code. It's just meaningless code aesthetics, if one overlaps more than the other.

 

[Drakkith]

What's the difference between code similar to a computer vs the actual code? One is the computer, the other might not produce any computer operations at all, or very ineffecient ones.

One could also compare it to different versions of the same program. If a programmer changed the name of a variable in one of the functions, is that function still the same function as it used to be? Note that microsatellites are simply repeated patterns of short DNA code, typically 1-6 nucleotides long. They don't code for proteins and are not subject to stringent conservative evolutionary pressure, meaning that mutations in them aren't as detrimental as they might be elsewhere in the genome. This makes it convenient to use for genetic analysis.

No dog breed is technically more related to the wolf if none of their targetted structures are verbatim copies of the wolf code. It's just meaningless code aesthetics, if one overlaps more than the other.

I'm not sure how the authors of the article evaluated the DNA. The microsatellite loci may have been identical in all the wolves, or there may have been some variability between individuals. Hence why I asked you what the difference between the two were. If there is variability in these microsatellite loci between individuals, that would make it impossible for the loci to match up exactly between breeds and wolves, as there would be no single template from either dogs or wolves with which to compare.

 

[Pleonasm]

One could also compare it to different versions of the same program. If a programmer changed the name of a variable in one of the functions, is that function still the same function as it used to be? Note that microsatellites are simply repeated patterns of short DNA code, typically 1-6 nucleotides long. They don't code for proteins and are not subject to stringent conservative evolutionary pressure, meaning that mutations in them aren't as detrimental as they might be elsewhere in the genome. This makes it convenient to use for genetic analysis.
I'm not sure how the authors of the article evaluated the DNA. The microsatellite loci may have been identical in all the wolves, or there may have been some variability between individuals. Hence why I asked you what the difference between the two were. If there is variability in these microsatellite loci between individuals, that would make it impossible for the loci to match up exactly between breeds and wolves, as there would be no single template from either dogs or wolves with which to compare.

If similarity between code structures is sufficient for wolf connections, then dogs like the Shiba Inu would likely reflect this overlap as being more wolfy. You wouldn't even need a study. I have outlined how this is not the case. While the Shiba Inu has several primal attributes and is no way an ordinary, domesticated dog (far from it), it is not wolfy in body language, behavior, vocalisation etc. The Siberian Husky exhibits far wolfier behavior, yet it doesn't even make the top 5 list.

 

[Drakkith]

If similarity between code structures is sufficient for wolf connections, then dogs like the Shiba Inu would likely reflect this overlap as being more wolfy. You wouldn't even need a study. I have outlined how this is not the case.

Tell me. How much do you know about genetics? Why would I trust your explanation over the articles referenced earlier in the thread?

While the Shiba Inu has several primal attributes and is no way an ordinary, domesticated dog (far from it), it is not wolfy in body language, behavior, vocalisation etc. The Siberian Husky exhibits far wolfier behavior, yet it doesn't even make the top 5 list.

Which suggests that the appearance of an animal doesn't necessarily correspond directly to how distantly related it is to another animal.

 

[Pleonasm]

Tell me. How much do you know about genetics? Why would I trust your explanation over the articles referenced earlier in the thread?

Because I know my history.. Neither the modern day Shiba Inu or Alaskan malamute is the oldest dog breed. Far from it. Both went nearly extinct and both were reinstated by the use of three distinct, but similar breeds of dogs. The only logical conclusion to draw from this, concidering that they are 1 and 4th respectively on the list, is that other breeds mixed in were ancient too. I don't know if I would bet on that with a "design dog" like the Alaskan malamute, so I am very surprised and sceptical of how high it placed. There was also near certain reinjection of wolf blood in early incarnations of Malamutes, which is not detectable by regular samples but possibly by a deeper DNA study. This should disqualify it from the study altogether if true.

 

[Drakkith]

Because I know my history. Neither the modern day Shiba Inu or Alaskan malamute is the oldest dog breed. Far from it. Both went nearly extinct and both were reinstated by the use of three distinct, but similar breeds of dogs.

Can you provide any references supporting this?

There was also near certain reinjection of wolf blood in early incarnations of Malamutes, which is not detectable by regular samples but possibly by a deeper DNA study.

And this.

 

[Pleonasm]

Can you provide any references supporting this?
And this.

Here's an extensive account of Malamutes. The shiba extinction threat is in any bio on the net. http://omalmalamutes.com/omal/kotzebuevsmaloot.htm

 

[Drakkith]

Here's an extensive account of Malamutes. The shiba extinction threat is in any bio on the net. http://omalmalamutes.com/omal/kotzebuevsmaloot.htm

Awesome, thanks.

Well, I wish I could help you further, but I don't believe I know enough about this topic. I trust that there's an explanation that accounts for both the breed history and the genetic analysis though. But I certainly don't know it.

 

[Pleonasm]

Awesome, thanks.

Well, I wish I could help you further, but I don't believe I know enough about this topic. I trust that there's an explanation that accounts for both the breed history and the genetic analysis though. But I certainly don't know it.

Wouldn't you agree that if if a working breed is resurrected with new blood lines, it's rather unlikely so many years after its conception that those blood lines are ancient too?

 

[Pleonasm]

Here is the deceased mother of my Alaskan Malamute dog. She appears to be from the original blood line, concidering the smaller size. She was as small as a retriever dog.

 

[Drakkith]

Wouldn't you agree that if if a working breed is resurrected with new blood lines, it's rather unlikely so many years after its conception that those blood lines are ancient too?

I suppose it depends on how much new blood was introduced.

 

[Pleonasm]

I suppose it depends on how much new blood was introduced.

Enough to propagate morphological variance. Malamutes were originally medium sized dogs resembling Huskies. Nowdays they might as well look like this from certain lines.

 

[Gil Lee]

Hey, my Shiba Inu is like a wolf, ,,,, more like a fox. if there is fox like the wolf. How many different wolves are out there? one must be close to fox. I've got one like a fox.

 

[Pleonasm]

Hey, my Shiba Inu is like a wolf, ,,,, more like a fox. if there is fox like the wolf. How many different wolves are out there? one must be close to fox. I've got one like a fox.

That would make sense since it states wolf-like, not wolf. And foxes are wolf-like.

 

[Pleonasm]

The graph only shows the estimated proportion of each breeds membership in each cluster. You cannot directly determine how similar any of them are to each other from this graph.

That's a fallacy, and I'll explain why. Even though the Shiba, Akita and Chow Chow had the same amount of gray wolf overlap, the Akita and Chow had more branching of additional breeds mixed in, while the Shiba stays consistent with just one line of similar breed(s) + the grey wolf heritance. This would make the shiba technically more wolf-like on the basis of less divergance = less branching out.

 

[Drakkith]

Even though the Shiba, Akita and Chow Chow had the same amount of gray wolf overlap, the Akita and Chow had more branching of additional breeds mixed in, while the Shiba stays consistent with just one line of similar breed(s) + the grey wolf heritance.

I don't see anything to support this. Figures 2 and 3 of the paper show virtually equal proportions of other clusters in these breeds as far as I can tell. Are we looking at the same figures?

 

[Pleonasm]

I don't see anything to support this. Figures 2 and 3 of the paper show virtually equal proportions of other clusters in these breeds as far as I can tell. Are we looking at the same figures?

It doesn't specify which all of the families each breeds DNA conformed to, since this would amount to a guessing game. I happen to know historically that the dog breeds in the Akita (yes Japanese Akitas included) is amongst others the German Shepherd. This occurred out of neccesity when Akitas in Japan were threatened with extinction during WW2. The German Shepherd DNA is very distinct from the grey wolfes as this study showed. The Shiba inus family tree is free of western dog crossbreeding, because dogs on the countryside were not subject to this crossbreeding.

 

[Pleonasm]

Put it like this: suppose we want to compare two mixed breed dogs Husky-conformity, and suppose both have 20% Husky in them. If the rest of dog DNA in dog A is still sled dogs, while the rest of the dog DNA in mixed Dog B is german shepherds, then naturally, Dog A is closer to a pure breed Husky because the other dogs are closer to the husky in dog A, than they are in dog B.

 

[Pleonasm]

I am guessing this is how the Shiba Inu was deemed more wolf-like even though the Wolf DNA overlap was tied between the three Japanese breeds

 

[Drakkith]

It doesn't specify which all of the families each breeds DNA conformed to, since this would amount to a guessing game. I happen to know historically that the dog breeds in the Akita (yes Japanese Akitas included) is amongst others the German Shepherd. This occurred out of neccesity when Akitas in Japan were threatened with extinction during WW2.

Then one has to ask why the two breeds have virtually no overlap in cluster membership.

I am guessing this is how the Shiba Inu was deemed more wolf-like even though the Wolf DNA overlap was tied between the three Japanese breeds

I'm not sure. I think they just compared allele frequencies and didn't provide the detailed analysis in the article.

 

[Rive]

Shiba dog's DNA found to be most similar to the Wolf but...

Usually such genetic relation graphs are made based on selected DNA sequences/genes, and does not represents the whole DNA (which would be the same for all dog- and wolf-types up to 9x%). So the accuracy of the study will depend entirely on the set of genes selected for testing for the actual study.
Without the raw data that graph (study) has very-very limited scientific value now.

With time (and with the amount of relevant studies growing) the information about the relevance of the different genes is growing so the accuracy of such claims will be improved too. But I'm afraid the early DNA based studies might has a decent amount of wishful thinking in them due the lack of information about relevance of specific genes.

 

[Pleonasm]

Then one has to ask why the two breeds have virtually no overlap in cluster membership.e.

Perhaps because the modern-day German Shepherd is not the same dog as the breed used to cross-breed with Akitas in WW2? Although the difference should''t be that big..

 

[Pleonasm]

Usually such genetic relation graphs are made based on selected DNA sequences/genes, and does not represents the whole DNA (which would be the same for all dog- and wolf-types up to 9x%). So the accuracy of the study will depend entirely on the set of genes selected for testing for the actual study.
Without the raw data that graph (study) has very-very limited scientific value now.

With time (and with the amount of relevant studies growing) the information about the relevance of the different genes is growing so the accuracy of such claims will be improved too. But I'm afraid the early DNA based studies might has a decent amount of wishful thinking in them due the lack of information about relevance of specific genes.

It's the same conditions for all dog breeds. Are you saying that that Spitz breeds are unfairly favored in these type of studies?

 

[Pleonasm]

What I found most chocking is that the conformity to Wolf DNA in the Japanese spitz breed cluster was reportedly not only higher (expected) but way above the normal range.

Also nothworthy is that that these Japanese spitz breeds were NOT cross-bred with wolfes, unlike the early alaskan malamutes, yet they were still more wolf-like!

 

[Rive]

Are you saying that that Spitz breeds are unfairly favored in these type of studies?

I'm saying that you should not stick to older studies and also should not stick to ill-texted graphs.

With the 'blood unit' you (and actually breeders using something like this too -I'm somehow reluctant to use this, but as I see most misunderstandings here originated from your unfamiliarity with the real scientific language) used in the thread about testing the DNA of your dog the shiba is <<<0.1% wolf.
Practically all the other dogs are too <<<0.1% wolf. This comes directly from the distance (in generations) from the common dog ancestors and the distance of those ancestors from the wolves.

There are two different use for the term 'wolfdog'. One is to title specific breeds, like the Czeslovakian wolfdog or some other (german shepherd, for example). You have to know, that in 'blood unit' these breeds are clearly dogs, and genetically they are all far closer to their dog ancestors than to wolves. With all the generations from the start of these breeds it is exactly as expected. They are dogs.

Other use for the term 'wolfdog' is, when one unlucky dog has a wolf ancestor within only a few generations back. Usually this is rare, and mostly misused for dogs which are... well: complete psychos. But a real 'wolfdog' indeed 'speaks' only wolf, and so requires special care and does not fit well into human society.
In your 'blood units' this type of 'wolfdog' is between 5 - 50% (!) wolf.

Well, of course there are exceptions.

 

[Pleonasm]

The point is not how much Wolf there is in the pure dog breeds, but rather which breeds have the dog structures most conforming to Wolf structures.

 

[Pleonasm]

I'm saying that you should not stick to older studies and also should not stick to ill-texted graphs.

With the 'blood unit' you (and actually breeders using something like this too -I'm somehow reluctant to use this, but as I see most misunderstandings here originated from your unfamiliarity with the real scientific language) used in the thread about testing the DNA of your dog the shiba is <<<0.1% wolf.
Practically all the other dogs are too <<<0.1% wolf. This comes directly from the distance (in generations) from the common dog ancestors and the distance of those ancestors from the wolves.

There are two different use for the term 'wolfdog'. One is to title specific breeds, like the Czeslovakian wolfdog or some other (german shepherd, for example). You have to know, that in 'blood unit' these breeds are clearly dogs, and genetically they are all far closer to their dog ancestors than to wolves. With all the generations from the start of these breeds it is exactly as expected. They are dogs.

Other use for the term 'wolfdog' is, when one unlucky dog has a wolf ancestor within only a few generations back. Usually this is rare, and mostly misused for dogs which are... well: complete psychos. But a real 'wolfdog' indeed 'speaks' only wolf, and so requires special care and does not fit well into human society.
In your 'blood units' this type of 'wolfdog' is between 5 - 50% (!) wolf.

Well, of course there are exceptions.

Did you somehow misinterpet the study? It was NOT an examination into which dog breed has the most wolf in it. It was which dog breeds have most DNA structures conforming to grey Wolf DNA structures. This is perfectly compatible with all dog breeds having 99.8% Wolf in them.