Should Algebra Be Required At Community Colleges?

[PhotonSSBM]

http://physicstoday.scitation.org/do/10.1063/PT.6.3.20170728a/full/

The chancellor of the California Community Colleges system believes that students who are not majoring in math or science should not have to take intermediate algebra to earn an associate degree. California has the largest community college system in the US, and what goes in California sometimes spreads across the country. What do you think? Is algebra necessary for students who don't plan to pursue a career in the sciences? -Physics Today

As someone who tutors community college students frequently, this is something I don't really have a solid answer for. Most of the students who fail out of the school in my county is due to the math requirements, and severe lack of any foundation they received while they were in grade school. So from a pragmatic perspective, if you're not looking to major in fields related to science, I don't see much of a reason to force people down this tunnel of failure that weeds out more people from associates degree programs than introductory calculus does from engineering programs.

I propose this, condensing the requirements down for general degrees to one general education style class that covers arithmetic for basic accounting, reading and following plots (not creating them), how those plots can be abused to manipulate statistics, and incorporate how to use all of this in a spreadsheet to manage finances. I honestly believe these are the core things we should be teaching everyone in math, and going beyond this should be an option, not a mandate.

Most community college students I tutor are there because they had a pretty garbage life, and more often than not had a pretty garbage school district. Expecting a grown up to learn the math of grades 1-10 in a year and a half is something I have always believed to be ridiculous. It can be done, but more often than not it just doesn't happen. I believe for the community college program in this country to succeed in helping more students get out of poverty we at the very least need to rethink how we teach math. What I've outlined above is just an idea, I'd love to hear what you guys think, especially those of you who are involved with community colleges yourselves. I think even if you disagree with what I've written, most of you should at least agree that there's a problem.

 

[scottdave]

It has been so many years for me. I had Algebra, Geometry, Trig and Calculus in High School, and I started with Calculus in college. What are the key topics for today's College Algebra?

 

[Vanadium 50]

First comment: what is the point of an AA degree? Does it indicate mastery of content, or is it merely a piece of paper. If the former, removing content devalues it. If the latter, we should remove even more content, so everyone can get one.

Second comment: "We're never going to use this!" is an argument more appropriate for a fourth grader than the Chancellor of the California Community Colleges system. It's also an argument that can be applied to many places in an AA/AS program.

Third comment: if the problem they are trying to solve is that algebra is "a major barrier to students of color", isn't the solution to require it only for white students? And if you think my proposal is ridiculous and offensive, I'd ask you to reflect on why you think this is so, and how Mr. Oakley's proposal scores on the same scale.

 

[Dr.D]

Not every one needs a college degree in life. Community colleges seek to fulfill two roles, I think: (1) to serve as feeders into four year programs elsewhere, and (2) to provide job skills beyond a high school degree level. There is a degree of conflict between these two goals. If the first goal is to be met, even for those who will eventually be liberal arts majors at a four year school, the community colleges must continue to teach College Algebra as College Algebra. But that is little more than what should have been learned in high school algebra. So if they are to require any mathematical growth for community college students, all should take College Algebra without dilution.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

CC's and VoTech's train people to make a living. Lots of people need that these days.

 

[Dr.D]

CC's and VoTech's train people to make a living. Lots of people need that these days.

That was my second point above, and I certainly agree. It just happens to be in conflict with the first point I raised.

 

[scottdave]

Here are a couple of other articles, one about Bob Moses, who the OP article referenced. He is an inspiration. He fought for civil rights in the 60's, and now works to help student, who are falling behind in math tests.
http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...-rights-hero-math-is-kids-formula-for-success
Then this is another article that I found talking about the general subject of "will I ever use _____?"
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesm...d-utility-of-classroom-learning/#459a8dc56bfc

 

[PhotonSSBM]

First comment: what is the point of an AA degree? Does it indicate mastery of content, or is it merely a piece of paper. If the former, removing content devalues it. If the latter, we should remove even more content, so everyone cvan get one.

Second comment: "We're never going to use this!" is an argument more appropriate for a fourth grader than the Chancellor of the California Community Colleges system. It's also an argument that can be applied to many places in an AA/AS program.

Third comment: if the problem they are trying to solve is that algebra is "a major barrier to students of color", isn't the solution to require it only for white students? And if you think my proposal is ridiculous and offensive, I'd ask you to reflect on why you think this is so, and how Mr. Oakley's proposal scores on the same scale.

/
Can you tell me what value is added to someone who wants to be a physical therapist by being able to reduce a rational expression? An argument can easily be made that everyone uses math regularly, it's the level of which we require math to be mastered that's the issue. But how does being able to reduce a rational expression add to the value of such degrees where, guess what, nobody cares what you got in a math class unless you failed it.

Edit: To summarize, why do we require such a high degree of mastery for math, and not say, Literature?

 

[Dr.D]

Edit: To summarize, why do we require such a high degree of mastery for math, and not say, Literature?

This gets right to the heart of the question. The answer is because what mathematics teaches us about logical thinking. This is not to say that logic cannot be applied in literature, because it certainly can be done. But literature can also be studied on a non-logical basis, looking only at emotions and fuzzy thought. That last approach simply does not work for algebra.

Unfortunately, algebra can also be "practiced" to a limited degree with very little thought. If a student simply learns "When you see this sort of problem, you execute these steps to solve it," that has little or no value. But if the student learns to think about what he is doing, why this leads to the solution, then we have the value of algebra for the non-technical student.

 

[symbolipoint]

After just reading this part of the post, and no more yet, I have this opinion...

The chancellor of the California Community Colleges system believes that students who are not majoring in math or science should not have to take intermediate algebra to earn an associate degree. California has the largest community college system in the US, and what goes in California sometimes spreads across the country. What do you think? Is algebra necessary for students who don't plan to pursue a career in the sciences? -Physics Today

Intermediate Algebra, as the minimum, should be required for any student wishing to earn an Associate Degree of , I would like to say, ANY major, from a community college. Although recheck should be done, my understanding is that at least "College Algebra" is required; and some major fields require either "Finite Math" or "Intro. Statistics", and of course anyone aiming in STEM for a degree from community college has other or additional Mathematics requirements (like Calculus 1, 2, or also 3; and some parts of linear algebra or differential equations). The STEM students need the additional mathematics skills and concepts for some of their relevant courses.

 

[symbolipoint]

First comment: what is the point of an AA degree? Does it indicate mastery of content, or is it merely a piece of paper. If the former, removing content devalues it. If the latter, we should remove even more content, so everyone cvan get one.

Second comment: "We're never going to use this!" is an argument more appropriate for a fourth grader than the Chancellor of the California Community Colleges system. It's also an argument that can be applied to many places in an AA/AS program.

Third comment: if the problem they are trying to solve is that algebra is "a major barrier to students of color", isn't the solution to require it only for white students? And if you think my proposal is ridiculous and offensive, I'd ask you to reflect on why you think this is so, and how Mr. Oakley's proposal scores on the same scale.

Keep the same standards for everyone, in order to support equality and justice. This includes the Mathematics requirements for the academic programs.

The question of "when or how will we ever use this?" is a ...not sure how to say... a poor question, because the schools, the teachers/professors, even the students themselves, are not yet in a field after graduating, to know what they will need to use nor when nor where they will need to use it. Prepare for MORE, and then PICK WHAT YOU NEED LATER.

 

[symbolipoint]

This gets right to the heart of the question. The answer is because what mathematics teaches us about logical thinking. This is not to say that logic cannot be applied in literature, because it certainly can be done. But literature can also be studied on a non-logical basis, looking only at emotions and fuzzy thought. That last approach simply does not work for algebra.

Unfortunately, algebra can also be "practiced" to a limited degree with very little thought. If a student simply learns "When you see this sort of problem, you execute these steps to solve it," that has little or no value. But if the student learns to think about what he is doing, why this leads to the solution, then we have the value of algebra for the non-technical student.

I know because I can feel it in my bones, that a good discussion should be possible, describing how dealing with Algebra, computer programming, can help a person to form an outline of a critique report about a piece of literature or a fictional film; and then let the person's own artistry guide him as he fill this outline.

 

[Dr.D]

@ symbolipoint: I don't think anyone would argue that STEM students do not need Algebra. The primary question, as I see it, is whether other students need this as a degree requirement or not.

A major premise of education down to the present time is that it should broaden the student, and enable them to think more logically than when they began their studies. All of mathematics may be viewed as nothing more than a formal system of logic, and the small part of that that comprises College Algebra has long been seen as a minimum for anyone holding even an Associate degree. The ability to think logically, to reason correctly, is important in every aspect of life, even for folks who never later solve a quadratic equation.

 

[symbolipoint]

@ symbolipoint: I don't think anyone would argue that STEM students do not need Algebra. The primary question, as I see it, is whether other students need this as a degree requirement or not.

A major premise of education down to the present time is that it should broaden the student, and enable them to think more logically than when they began their studies. All of mathematics may be viewed as nothing more than a formal system of logic, and the small part of that that comprises College Algebra has long been seen as a minimum for anyone holding even an Associate degree. The ability to think logically, to reason correctly, is important in every aspect of life, even for folks who never later solve a quadratic equation.

Dr. D,
I understand what you mean. My opinion is, for non STEM students, just make Intermediate Algebra the requirement for A.A. degree from community college. People will still disagree and say that this "Intermediate" level algebra is still too tough and 'unnecessary'.

 

[Mark44]

Can you tell me what value is added to someone who wants to be a physical therapist by being able to reduce a rational expression?

I'm reminded of my sister, who started her college studies after having kids. She succeeded in completing the program to get her RN (Registered Nurse) degree/certificate. Being a nurse is not quite the same as being a physical therapist, but there are similarities. One thing she had to learn was how to calculate the correct dosage of some drug based on patient's weight. Although she wasn't reducing a rational expression, she was solving a fairly simple equation involving fractional quantities. If she had not been exposed to algebra earlier in her program, she wouldn't have had a clue as to how to proceed.

For a physical therapist, being mindful of the stresses and strains on joints such as knees and elbows has to do with leverage, and proportions. If you are seated and use your foot to lift a weight of 10 lb., would you as a physical therapist be able to calculate the force exerted on your knee in lifting this weigth?

I can see that being able to simplify rational expressions might not be germane to some studies, but your example of a physical therapist doesn't seem to me to be one of those.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Can you tell me what value is added to someone who wants to be a physical therapist by being able to reduce a rational expression?

About the same as it is for whatever they get from an extra class in Literature.

Edit: To summarize, why do we require such a high degree of mastery for math, and not say, Literature?

Now you're starting to get to the heart of the matter. I looked at the AA/AS requirements and also the graduation requirements for California high schools. In English and Math they are the same: one course post-HS. So what's the problem? Probably that the high schools looked the other way when their students didn't really know Algebra I and graduated them anyway.

 

[symbolipoint]

I'm reminded of my sister, who started her college studies after having kids. She succeeded in completing the program to get her RN (Registered Nurse) degree/certificate. Being a nurse is not quite the same as being a physical therapist, but there are similarities. One thing she had to learn was how to calculate the correct dosage of some drug based on patient's weight. Although she wasn't reducing a rational expression, she was solving a fairly simple equation involving fractional quantities. If she had not been exposed to algebra earlier in her program, she wouldn't have had a clue as to how to proceed.

For a physical therapist, being mindful of the stresses and strains on joints such as knees and elbows has to do with leverage, and proportions. If you are seated and use your foot to lift a weight of 10 lb., would you as a physical therapist be able to calculate the force exerted on your knee in lifting this weigth?

I can see that being able to simplify rational expressions might not be germane to some studies, but your example of a physical therapist doesn't seem to me to be one of those.

I really LIKE this posting quoted above and I wish I could put in two more LIKES. Naturally, this forum system does not allow it.

 

[PhotonSSBM]

After just reading this part of the post, and no more yet, I have this opinion...

Intermediate Algebra, as the minimum, should be required for any student wishing to earn an Associate Degree of , I would like to say, ANY major, from a community college. Although recheck should be done, my understanding is that at least "College Algebra" is required; and some major fields require either "Finite Math" or "Intro. Statistics", and of course anyone aiming in STEM for a degree from community college has other or additional Mathematics requirements (like Calculus 1, 2, or also 3; and some parts of linear algebra or differential equations). The STEM students need the additional mathematics skills and concepts for some of their relevant courses.

Requirements for all degrees at community college usually boils down to one of three things:
1. Pass intermediate algebra with a D or greater (The buildup to this can be upwards of 3 courses: Arithmetic, College Algebra, Intermediate Algerba)
2. Pass a math class specific to your degree (a medical mathematics class for instance)
3. If you test out of Intermediate algebra, and 2 does not apply, pass the next highest math course possible.

And of course if you are majoring in STEM you'll take more as you say.

The issue isn't so much that math, or even algebra, is required. It is the extent and magnitude to which we require mathematical rigor from students. Which I will address in the next quote.

I'm reminded of my sister, who started her college studies after having kids. She succeeded in completing the program to get her RN (Registered Nurse) degree/certificate. Being a nurse is not quite the same as being a physical therapist, but there are similarities. One thing she had to learn was how to calculate the correct dosage of some drug based on patient's weight. Although she wasn't reducing a rational expression, she was solving a fairly simple equation involving fractional quantities. If she had not been exposed to algebra earlier in her program, she wouldn't have had a clue as to how to proceed.

For a physical therapist, being mindful of the stresses and strains on joints such as knees and elbows has to do with leverage, and proportions. If you are seated and use your foot to lift a weight of 10 lb., would you as a physical therapist be able to calculate the force exerted on your knee in lifting this weigth?

I can see that being able to simplify rational expressions might not be germane to some studies, but your example of a physical therapist doesn't seem to me to be one of those.

I truly appreciate your sentiment. And I would never suggest that NO mathematical background be present in a degree. I would even say that many aspects of algebra are essential to being an informed citizen-namely creating and interpreting plots.

But let me raise an objection to your point here. I tutor nursing students on the regular at my old school, among others. Intermediate Algebra is a prerequisite to even being considered for the nursing program. And while they are a CC, their program is competitive due to it's low tuition. With that being said, our school has one of the highest failure rates on the state exams for the RN program and has a failure rate within the program that is quite high. This isn't unusual, but do you want to venture a guess as to why they fail?

It's math. They are allowed one failure of the dosage and conversions exams (failure is <90%) and if they fail again, they are out. This, in itself, is not the issue. Nurses should be held to a higher standard. However, this is the number one reason people fail. Now, it's worth noting here that within the program there is math course dedicated to this subject. It is not something one learns in Intermediate Algebra. So why is it that such a large portion of students fail a math portion of a program when they had to do excellent in math to enter the program in the first place. I would argue that it is because Intermediate Algebra, except in the case of specific STEM programs, does not give the mathematical skills necessary to do math that a person may use in their field. Learning how to simplify a rational expression, find the sum of a geometric series, and memorizing the equation of an ellipse do not add any value to a degree or most peoples mathematical tool kits.

Again, I am in no way suggesting math isn't useful. But I believe if we are to require math as a general education requirement in the same way as we do courses like literature, history and art, we should have the same approach to teaching both at the same level.

Let me flesh something out to you and see if you agree with me:

1. We should maintain algebra up to the level of college algebra (basic equations, plotting lines, factoring)
2. Incorporate basic statistics into arithmetic and college algebra.
3. Incorporate spreadsheet uses and basic programming as a mandatory gen ed.
4. Reduce effective number of required math classes to 2 instead of 3 (Arithmetic and College Algebra)
5. Encourage students to take math courses specific to their fields. (i.e. what our nursing program does) As opposed to just intermediate algebra.

I believe this would be better suited to a person seeking a general education in mathematics. Would you do things differently? I'd genuinely like to hear yours and others' opinions.

Now you're starting to get to the heart of the matter. I looked at the AA/AS requirements and also the graduation requirements for California high schools. In English and Math they are the same: one course post-HS. So what's the problem? Probably that the high schools looked the other way when their students didn't really know Algebra I and graduated them anyway.

You highlight such an important point when thinking about this problem. Right now CC's are at an impasse. They pull funding from FAFSA's and state grants by the millions, yet most of the students who get those grants don't graduate or transfer to a good school because they can't pass mathematics. That is the struggle they face right now. This is, as you point out, largely due to an inefficient and obtuse secondary education system in this country. Students come out of low income schools and GED programs with almost no real preparation for mathematics due to negligence and mismanagement. Their only option for developing their careers are either retail, pursuing an education at CC, or going to trade school. In their current state, CC's are becoming a non-viable option for these students. And they are being left behind. So the question I and others have raised who are in these communities teaching these students is, what can we do better? Because what's going on right now isn't working. Both for the students, and on the business side of the school where grants may stop coming to schools who can't pass more of these students through algebra. I'd be curious to what you think a better solution is if any to this problem, and what you think of my ideas.

 

[symbolipoint]

PhotonSSBM

True point about some math skills instructed in Intermediate Algebra, but other math skills emphasized in the nursing programs after Intermed Algebra. I cannot remember any strong focus on unit-of-measure conversions when studied Intermediate Algebra, NOR in College Algebra. There was a bit of attention on it, but not much. Nursing students, if they have a separate mathematical component , might/or/do have some courses which instruct about many, many units and their conversion ratios. The same idea happens with Physics and Chemistry major fields.

 

[russ_watters]

The chancellor of the California Community Colleges system believes that students who are not majoring in math or science should not have to take intermediate algebra to earn an associate degree.

I'd say he should be fired immediately, but since it is California, I'll say give him a raise and more responsibility instead.

What do you think? Is algebra necessary for students who don't plan to pursue a career in the sciences? -Physics Today

Most community college students I tutor are there because they had a pretty garbage life, and more often than not had a pretty garbage school district. Expecting a grown up to learn the math of grades 1-10 in a year and a half is something I have always believed to be ridiculous. It can be done, but more often than not it just doesn't happen. I believe for the community college program in this country to succeed in helping more students get out of poverty we at the very least need to rethink how we teach math.

In high school, I had math classes, science classes, English classes, social studies (history) classes, music classes, phys-ed classes, health classes, etc. Algebra was a relatively low-level class (I took my last algebra class as a sophomore). So what you are basically saying is that it is pretty easy to fake it in other classes where the scoring is more qualitative, but math is harder because there are clear-cut right and wrong answers...so we shouldn't force people to learn it.

I agree with you, but I'd take it a step further: Why force them to learn anything? Why not just hand-out associates degrees to everyone who doesn't have one and is at risk of falling into poverty? Sound ridiculous? Why?

Can you tell me what value is added to someone who wants to be a physical therapist by being able to reduce a rational expression? An argument can easily be made that everyone uses math regularly, it's the level of which we require math to be mastered that's the issue. But how does being able to reduce a rational expression add to the value of such degrees where, guess what, nobody cares what you got in a math class unless you failed it.

Edit: To summarize, why do we require such a high degree of mastery for math, and not say, Literature?

I agree, but de-valuing the degree will only work if we don't tell anyone we're de-valuing the degree. So don't tell anyone, ok?!
[/California]

 

[russ_watters]

Now you're starting to get to the heart of the matter. I looked at the AA/AS requirements and also the graduation requirements for California high schools. In English and Math they are the same: one course post-HS. So what's the problem? Probably that the high schools looked the other way when their students didn't really know Algebra I and graduated them anyway.

I agree; schools should be giving partial credit in math assignments for earnestness.
[/California]

 

[symbolipoint]

Just now checked one of the C.C. catalogs. There are various requirements for Mathematics, depending on the specific academic or training program. Intermediate Algebra is just ONE OF the options for A.A. Degree Mathematics requirement. There are other options which include College Algebra.

 

[PhotonSSBM]

Just now checked one of the C.C. catalogs. There are various requirements for Mathematics, depending on the specific academic or training program. Intermediate Algebra is just ONE OF the options for A.A. Degree Mathematics requirement. There are other options which include College Algebra.

Ah that's good to hear. My schools and others in PA have a requirement of at least one class above College Algebra. It is interesting to hear that's not a national standard.

stuff

I get what you're trying to say. Really it's not like it hasn't crossed my mind that people are just lazy and refuse to learn difficult things. And I will be the first to say that about a third of CC students match that description. But that doesn't explain how 75% of the students who enter my CC here in Pittsburgh flunk out before graduating. It was so bad that we lied to the government about it.

So, I'm sure you, at least, agree that there's a problem. We seem to disagree about what that problem is. Here are the options:

1. Students in low income situations are lazy or ignorant of how to properly be a student
2. The way we are teaching algebra is wrong
3. Algebra is wrong
4. The quality of the school is garbage, so the free market should raise its scythe accordingly
5. Some combination of the above

I personally believe it's a combination of 1,2, and in many cases 4.

Certainly you agree that the drop out/failure rates are a problem for schools from a pragmatic point of view at least. From a business perspective they aren't delivering their product (Degrees) to their customers (Students), at a rate that any business should be able to function, and that's not just in Pittsburgh, it's everywhere. What do you propose the problem/solution is if you disagree with making it easier to graduate?

 

[Vanadium 50]

The buildup to this can be upwards of 3 courses: Arithmetic, College Algebra, Intermediate Algerba

If a student enters CC without knowing arithmetic, the K-12 system has failed. They have taken someone who didn't know the material and kicked the can down the road to the next station in the chain, most likely several times. I mean we're talking junior high material being still unlearned for someone who wants to start college. Yipes!

I agree this is a problem. I disagree the solution is to do the same thing as what got us into this mess: relax the requirements and kick the can further down the road.

 

[PhotonSSBM]

If a student enters CC without knowing arithmetic, the K-12 system has failed. They have taken someone who didn't know the material and kicked the can down the road to the next station in the chain, most likely several times. I mean we're talking junior high material being still unlearned for someone who wants to start college. Yipes!

I agree this is a problem. I disagree the solution is to do the same thing as what got us into this mess: relax the requirements and kick the can further down the road.

Except I would argue the problem isn't that requirements are being relaxed in K-12 schools, it's that they're being thrown out all together. It's like this: a student in a low income school is a problem to a class, the teacher doesn't want them repeating, so they just straight up pass the student with a D so they don't have to see them again. That's not just being relaxed, it's being dead in the water. All I would suggest is that we keep our high standards for the classes we DO teach, but change the curriculum to be more pragmatic and more useful to the student in the longterm, see my outline above.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I received my education in Canada, so I'm unfamiliar with the requirements of an Associates Degree at American community colleges. I'm specifically curious about what is typically covered in the (required) algebra class in community colleges. Does anyone have a link to a typical syllabus or a typical textbook that is used for such classes?

 

[PhotonSSBM]

I received my education in Canada, so I'm unfamiliar with the requirements of an Associates Degree at American community colleges. I'm specifically curious about what is typically covered in the (required) algebra class in community colleges. Does anyone have a link to a typical syllabus or a typical textbook that is used for such classes?

Course Syllabi for math classes in my county's CC:

https://webapps.ccac.edu/mastersyllabi/GetCourses/tabid/57/Default.aspx?subject=MAT

The typical sequence for non-STEM majors is MATH 080, MATH 090, and MATH 108. You can test out of one or all of the classes. But will be required to take one higher if you test out of 108.

 

[FallenApple]

It's pretty basic stuff, and they want to cut it from the requirement? Our country is already stagnating as it is. Technology is rapidly improving and society simply needs to get smarter to keep up. The days of simple tasks are more or less coming to an end. So the rational thing to do is to improve education and skills as much as possible, not keep cutting standards.

 

[symbolipoint]

Course Syllabi for math classes in my county's CC:

https://webapps.ccac.edu/mastersyllabi/GetCourses/tabid/57/Default.aspx?subject=MAT

The typical sequence for non-STEM majors is MATH 080, MATH 090, and MATH 108. You can test out of one or all of the classes. But will be required to take one higher if you test out of 108.

The table in there shows at that college, MATH 108 is Intermediate Algebra at that school.

 

[russ_watters]

I get what you're trying to say. Really it's not like it hasn't crossed my mind that people are just lazy and refuse to learn difficult things. And I will be the first to say that about a third of CC students match that description. But that doesn't explain how 75% of the students who enter my CC here in Pittsburgh flunk out before graduating. It was so bad that we lied to the government about it.

So, I'm sure you, at least, agree that there's a problem. We seem to disagree about what that problem is. Here are the options:

1. Students in low income situations are lazy or ignorant of how to properly be a student
2. The way we are teaching algebra is wrong
3. Algebra is wrong
4. The quality of the school is garbage, so the free market should raise its scythe accordingly
5. Some combination of the above

I personally believe it's a combination of 1,2, and in many cases 4.

You forgot probably the biggest; the other side of the coin from #1: high schools aren't preparing students.

Certainly you agree that the drop out/failure rates are a problem for schools from a pragmatic point of view at least. From a business perspective they aren't delivering their product (Degrees) to their customers (Students), at a rate that any business should be able to function...

What? When you go to a car dealership, do you say "Here is a big bag of money, just give me any car you feel like giving me."? Why are you suggesting that here? No, I certainly did not go to college in order to get a worthless piece of paper. De-valuing it will make the problem(worhless college educations) worse, not better.

In either case, you are wrong about the business model: colleges don't get paid for graduating students, they get paid for enrolling them.

What do you propose the problem/solution is if you disagree with making it easier to graduate?

Make it harder to enter college and make it harder to graduate high school (and advance at every level).

 

[brainpushups]

From what I heard on the radio last week my understanding is that the proposal is to replace the requirement of algebra with a different mathematics course that is more 'practical.'

This gets right to the heart of the question. The answer is because what mathematics teaches us about logical thinking.

If this is indeed the reason for requiring all students to take math (seems reasonable to me) then what California should do is come up with a clear set of standards about logical reasoning, advertise which courses allow students to demonstrate their level mastery in these standards, and allow students to pick the course. Students could perhaps opt for a course in propositional logic, philosophy, or rhetoric to meet the requirement. If quantitative reasoning is part of what is valued then a math or science course is probably inescapable. Why not allow a student to use a geometry course as evidence of logical reasoning instead? Of course, many of the courses would likely need an overhaul in pedagogy based on

Unfortunately, [insert any course name here] can also be "practiced" to a limited degree with very little thought. If a student simply learns "When you see this sort of problem, you execute these steps to solve it," that has little or no value. But if the student learns to think about what he is doing, why this leads to the solution, then we have the value of algebra for the non-technical student.

 

[symbolipoint]

You forgot probably the biggest; the other side of the coin from #1: high schools aren't preparing students.

What? When you go to a car dealership, do you say "Here is a big bag of money, just give me any car you feel like giving me."? Why are you suggesting that here? No, I certainly did not go to college in order to get a worthless piece of paper. De-valuing it will make the problem(worhless college educations) worse, not better.

In either case, you are wrong about the business model: colleges don't get paid for graduating students, they get paid for enrolling them.

Make it harder to enter college and make it harder to graduate high school (and advance at every level).

From what I heard on the radio last week my understanding is that the proposal is to replace the requirement of algebra with a different mathematics course that is more 'practical.'
If this is indeed the reason for requiring all students to take math (seems reasonable to me) then what California should do is come up with a clear set of standards about logical reasoning, advertise which courses allow students to demonstrate their level mastery in these standards, and allow students to pick the course. Students could perhaps opt for a course in propositional logic, philosophy, or rhetoric to meet the requirement. If quantitative reasoning is part of what is valued then a math or science course is probably inescapable. Why not allow a student to use a geometry course as evidence of logical reasoning instead? Of course, many of the courses would likely need an overhaul in pedagogy based on

Some often ask the question, why is Algebra difficult, and also the question, why are students failing algebra 1?
Those asking or others, should also ask, why did those students who did succeed in Algebra 1, do so?

 

[PhotonSSBM]

You forgot probably the biggest; the other side of the coin from #1: high schools aren't preparing students.

I agree and discussed this earlier, but this is a problem that CC's have to address now, as I'll show next.

What? When you go to a car dealership, do you say "Here is a big bag of money, just give me any car you feel like giving me."? Why are you suggesting that here? No, I certainly did not go to college in order to get a worthless piece of paper. De-valuing it will make the problem(worhless college educations) worse, not better.

In either case, you are wrong about the business model: colleges don't get paid for graduating students, they get paid for enrolling them.

That's not what I'm saying or suggesting in either statement here. You keep assuming I want to get rid of Intermediate Algebra without adding something back. I made this point earlier, but apparently you didn't feel the need to read it, or you disagree with it but didn't feel like addressing it.

I am not wrong about the business model. You completely missed the point, which is that people will stop enrolling if failures and dropouts continue to go unabated, and federal grants will no longer be issued to those school if they can't graduate more students.

Make it harder to enter college and make it harder to graduate high school (and advance at every level).

I have to think about this more before I agree or disagree with it.

 

[PhotonSSBM]

The table in there shows at that college, MATH 108 is Intermediate Algebra at that school.

Correct, I don't think I suggested anything to the contrary.

 

[PhotonSSBM]

It's pretty basic stuff, and they want to cut it from the requirement? Our country is already stagnating as it is. Technology is rapidly improving and society simply needs to get smarter to keep up. The days of simple tasks are more or less coming to an end. So the rational thing to do is to improve education and skills as much as possible, not keep cutting standards.

I see your point, but nobody is suggesting that intermediate algebra not be offered to students, just that it shouldn't be mandatory. AND that we should replace the unnecessary portions of the class with practical skills. As I said earlier, learning how to code a spreadsheet is way more practical AND marketable than being able to factor a fourth degree polynomial.

 

[PhotonSSBM]

Some often ask the question, why is Algebra difficult, and also the question, why are students failing algebra 1?
Those asking or others, should also ask, why did those students who did succeed in Algebra 1, do so?

This is why we opened a tutoring center at our school specifically for math, where I worked for two years. People who took to those tutoring sessions were much more likely to pass with a C in a course. It was ours, and I assume, California's initial response to the problem. But with thousands of students, all of whom have to take the classes, it's almost impossible to help everyone. But you are absolutely right, and this IS the mentality successful students in these courses have.

 

[FallenApple]

I see your point, but nobody is suggesting that intermediate algebra not be offered to students, just that it shouldn't be mandatory. AND that we should replace the unnecessary portions of the class with practical skills. As I said earlier, learning how to code a spreadsheet is way more practical AND marketable than being able to factor a fourth degree polynomial.

How is someone supposed to write code if they don't know how to move x's and y's around? Maybe the math courses needs to be restructured a bit, but it should stay. Often a mathematical relation is determined on paper before putting it into a program. What is practical is higher level thinking( logic, deduction, mathematical relations etc) which is becoming more and more important these days. In the future, people will not be asked to do simple tasks such copy and paste manually across cells in spreadsheets, or data entry. They will need to actually tell the spreadsheets what to do, which follows mathematical logic.

 

[symbolipoint]

I see your point, but nobody is suggesting that intermediate algebra not be offered to students, just that it shouldn't be mandatory. AND that we should replace the unnecessary portions of the class with practical skills. As I said earlier, learning how to code a spreadsheet is way more practical AND marketable than being able to factor a fourth degree polynomial.

Makes one wonder: He can create a spreadsheet to do something with numbers, but can he think? (Maybe he can think, but factoring a fourth-degree polynomial before the invention of spreadsheets was possible).

 

[russ_watters]

That's not what I'm saying or suggesting in either statement here. You keep assuming I want to get rid of Intermediate Algebra without adding something back. I made this point earlier, but apparently you didn't feel the need to read it, or you disagree with it but didn't feel like addressing it.

No, I'm aware you want to switch it out for something else, but you can't get around your own reason for the suggestion: algebra is too hard. You only ask "do we need it" after declaring its too hard and should be gotten rid of. It doesn't even enable entertaining the opposite possibility: maybe we should require more math?

You completely missed the point, which is that people will stop enrolling if failures and dropouts continue to go unabated...

Maybe they should! I'm most certainly not missing it: That's the outcome I'm arguing for!

 

[symbolipoint]

How is someone supposed to write code if they don't know how to move x's and y's around? Maybe the math courses needs to be restructured a bit, but it should stay. Often a mathematical relation is determined on paper before putting it into a program. What is practical is higher level thinking( logic, deduction, mathematical relations etc) which is becoming more and more important these days. In the future, people will not be asked to do simple tasks such copy and paste manually across cells in spreadsheets, or data entry. They will need to actually tell the spreadsheets what to do, which follows mathematical logic.

What PhotonSSBM tried to say was, creating the spreadsheet to help factorize the polynomial, or for finding "roots" is easier (for those who have learned Spreadsheets well enough) than using other methods, such as pencil & paper, or writing a program in C or Fortran or Python or BASIC or whatever.

 

[PhotonSSBM]

How is someone supposed to write code if they don't know how to move x's and y's around? Often a mathematical relation is determined on paper before putting it into a program. What is practical is higher level think which is becoming more and more important these days. In the future, people will not be asked to do simple tasks such copy and paste manually across cells in spreadsheets, or data entry. They will need to actually tell the spreadsheets what to do, which follows mathematical logic.

You'd be surprised what someone who's taken College Algebra is capable of, and what someone who's taken Intermediate Algebra is not. I believe you, like others, overvalue what is being taught in the class. And I will have to disagree that it requires more than college algebra to be able to work a spreadsheet from my experience in tutoring our CS courses involving excel.

 

[FallenApple]

You'd be surprised what someone who's taken College Algebra is capable of, and what someone who's taken Intermediate Algebra is not. I believe you, like others, overvalue what is being taught in the class. And I will have to disagree that it requires more than college algebra to be able to work a spreadsheet from my experience in tutoring our CS courses involving excel.

Depends on the topic. For example, finance often uses spreadsheets and finance itself involves formulas that are often polynomials or exponentials. That simply needs to be coded in if they want to get the answers.

 

[PhotonSSBM]

No, I'm aware you want to switch it out for something else, but you can't get around your own reason for the suggestion: algebra is too hard. You only ask "do we need it" after declaring its too hard and should be gotten rid of. It doesn't even enable entertaining the opposite possibility: maybe we should require more math?

Maybe they should! I'm most certainly not missing it: That's the outcome I'm arguing for!

Now we're getting somewhere. I am curious then, not in a passive aggressive way, how you see the role of education. And if you believe that the role of education is to be highly competitive and difficult to achieve, what do you suggest that low skill workers do to gain the skills to move up the ladder of society?

 

[PhotonSSBM]

What PhotonSSBM tried to say was, creating the spreadsheet to help factorize the polynomial, or for finding "roots" is easier (for those who have learned Spreadsheets well enough) than using other methods, such as pencil & paper, or writing a program in C or Fortran or Python or BASIC or whatever.

I actually wasn't, but that is a good point :)

 

[FallenApple]

What PhotonSSBM tried to say was, creating the spreadsheet to help factorize the polynomial, or for finding "roots" is easier (for those who have learned Spreadsheets well enough) than using other methods, such as pencil & paper, or writing a program in C or Fortran or Python or BASIC or whatever.

My idea is more general. Many applications, more often than not, require formulas. To get the answer to various aspects of the problem, the formula needs to be changed around. So that requires some thinking and a bit of pencil work beforehand. Finance, physics, engineering, computer science. All those fields require some symbolic manipulation of mathematical ideas before placing it into a finalized code. This is because programs can't be pre built to handle every situation. A simplified example is this: Say there's a program that gives kinetic energy as the output and mass and speed as the input. If my job requires that I get the speed as the output using mass and kinetic energy as the input, then I need to do the math first on paper to see the functional relationship, then go into the code and tweak it around a bit. So just knowing algebra helps.

I remember working on a personal project and had to do a considerable amount of algebra before reaching the final expression, of which I didn't know how to solve for the roots analytically. It didn't matter, I just looked up Newton-Raplhson code, pasted it and plugged in the formula, changing the symbols around. The key point was that I needed to do algebra the whole way though, even re-modifying someone else's code required that I know exactly what each part does so that I can taylor it to my specific problem, which basically most problems are, specific problems.

 

[russ_watters]

Now we're getting somewhere. I am curious then, not in a passive aggressive way, how you see the role of education.

With no irony/coyness intended: the goal of education is to educate people.

And if you believe that the role of education is to be highly competitive and difficult to achieve...

Being difficult is not a role or a goal on its own except insofar as in order to be worth something, it has to require some effort. You have to accomplish something in order for the reward to be meaningful.

...what do you suggest that low skill workers do to gain the skills to move up the ladder of society?

Get an education and/or acquire more skill. I'm not being coy here by repeating your questions back to you as declarative statements: to me the answers really are that self evident. The government has a responsibility to probide a quality education. The students have a responsibility to make the most of it. If one of those groups (or both) is failing, it is up to them to fix it. The issue could not be any more straightforward.

[Edit] I'm reminded of a quote from Starship Troopers: "Something given has no value." It means that if you deem something to be too difficult and start giving it out for free, it becomes valueless. So that isn't a strategy that gets you around the problem of not enough people achieving it.

 

[PhotonSSBM]

With no irony/coyness intended: the goal of education is to educate people.

Being difficult is not a role or a goal on its own except insofar as in order to be worth something, it has to require some effort. You have to accomplish something in order for the reward to be meaningful.

Get an education and/or acquire more skill. I'm not being coy here by repeating your questions back to you as declarative statements: to me the answers really are that self evident. The government has a responsibility to probide a quality education. The students have a responsibility to make the most of it. If one of those groups (or both) is failing, it is up to them to fix it. The issue could not be any more straightforward.

[Edit] I'm reminded of a quote from Starship Troopers: "Something given has no value." It means that if you deem something to be too difficult and start giving it out for free, it becomes valueless. So that isn't a strategy that gets you around the problem of not enough people achieving it.

I think we agree when it comes to that quote and it's meaning. However, again, I would like to emphasize that whatever value you seem to perceive as being taken away by reducing the math requirement, can easily be amended and then some with more pragmatic skills being added as a graduation requirement. So imo there's no net loss if it's done correctly. When you look at the success rates of students in classes, every other class, even physics, has a lower rate of failure than mathematics by a wide margin. And graduation rates are, on average, around 30%. I don't believe these numbers are acceptable or sustainable for the schools or the students.

So based on your second point above, who do you believe to be at fault for these numbers: the schools/government, or the students? And whatever your answer, what would you suggest community colleges do to change these numbers? Or do you find the numbers acceptable and suggest they admit fewer students?

 

[symbolipoint]

I think we agree when it comes to that quote and it's meaning. However, again, I would like to emphasize that whatever value you seem to perceive as being taken away by reducing the math requirement, can easily be amended and then some with more pragmatic skills being added as a graduation requirement. So imo there's no net loss if it's done correctly. When you look at the success rates of students in classes, every other class, even physics, has a lower rate of failure than mathematics by a wide margin. And graduation rates are, on average, around 30%. I don't believe these numbers are acceptable or sustainable for the schools or the students.

So based on your second point above, who do you believe to be at fault for these numbers: the schools/government, or the students? And whatever your answer, what would you suggest community colleges do to change these numbers? Or do you find the numbers acceptable and suggest they admit fewer students?

How then did the successful Algebra students do it?

When you try to look for what parts of Mathematics to remove and what ways to replace them with what're practical, you need to look at too many different kinds of students in too many different fields. This cannot be neat. What we should have right now, is Basic Elementary Algebra, Intermediate Algebra, and for so many students at CCs still, College Algebra. Nobody knows who will choose which major field, and nobody knows exactly which parts of Algebra anyone person will or will not need, so students must learn or study all the contents of Mathematics for their program.

 

[russ_watters]

However, again, I would like to emphasize that whatever value you seem to perceive as being taken away by reducing the math requirement, can easily be amended and then some with more pragmatic skills being added as a graduation requirement.

Such as? Caveat: You've already lost me by getting rid of algebra and not history or gym, so I'm not sure there is an answer that will satisfy me, but I'd still like to hear it.

So imo there's no net loss if it's done correctly.

IMO, basic algebra is an essential skill of minimally functional people. So losing it is a major loss.

So based on your second point above, who do you believe to be at fault for these numbers: the schools/government, or the students?

Both, but primarily the students (and their parents).

And whatever your answer, what would you suggest community colleges do to change these numbers? Or do you find the numbers acceptable and suggest they admit fewer students?

I suggest they admit fewer students.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Now you're starting to get to the heart of the matter. I looked at the AA/AS requirements and also the graduation requirements for California high schools. In English and Math they are the same: one course post-HS. So what's the problem? Probably that the high schools looked the other way when their students didn't really know Algebra I and graduated them anyway.

Exactly right.

If a student enters CC without knowing arithmetic, the K-12 system has failed. They have taken someone who didn't know the material and kicked the can down the road to the next station in the chain, most likely several times. I mean we're talking junior high material being still unlearned for someone who wants to start college. Yipes!

I agree this is a problem. I disagree the solution is to do the same thing as what got us into this mess: relax the requirements and kick the can further down the road.

Exactly right.

You forgot probably the biggest; the other side of the coin from #1: high schools aren't preparing students.

In either case, you are wrong about the business model: colleges don't get paid for graduating students, they get paid for enrolling them.

Make it harder to enter college and make it harder to graduate high school (and advance at every level).

Exactly right.

I don't really care what California does. I am not a citizen of California, and the decisions of their public colleges should be left to their citizens and the republican process by which they are governed.

I would recommend we cease ALL federal financial aid for colleges that do not require algebra for their college degrees, and I would hate to see the state where I reside or where my children attend college stop requiring algebra for degrees.

Here's why:

Since all high schools require algebra for their college preparatory course sequences, failing to require algebra in college is essentially requiring less math to graduate for college than they are requiring in their college prep sequences. It is giving tacit permission to all those high schools who are passing students in Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 to award credit in those high school courses for students who are nowhere near proficient in those subjects. The message is "Don't worry about preparing students for college, we'll just lower our standards to accommodate the quality of students we get."

Why does an athlete need to lift weights if he does not compete in the weight lifting sports? Because strong muscles are better than weak muscles for lots of sports other than weight lifting.

The math class is the weight room for the mind. A strong mind is better than a weak mind for lots of thinking that does not directly use algebra. Higher education is about training the mind to think.

Every profession has some combination of three factors that create the value of that profession: working with the hands and strength (manual labor), putting oneself at risk for the good of others (military and police), and solving problems with one's mind. The smaller one's ability to solve problems with one's mind, the more one's livelihood will have to depend on manual labor and/or putting oneself at risk. Math through college algebra greatly enhances and strengthens the ability to solve problems with one's mind, even if one never puts pencil to paper.