Solve Force Systems II: Derivatives & Reasoning Explained

  • Context: MHB 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Drain Brain
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Force Systems
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the reasoning behind taking derivatives in a problem related to force systems, specifically focusing on the minimum value of a force variable, \( F_R \). Participants are exploring the steps involved in deriving equations and the implications of first and second derivatives in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the rationale for taking the derivative of a specific equation and the reasoning behind the second derivative's form.
  • Another participant explains that finding the minimum \( F_R \) necessitates taking a derivative, noting that the first derivative must equal zero at a relative minimum, and introduces the second derivative test for confirmation.
  • A third participant questions how the solution substitutes specific values into the second derivative equation, seeking clarity on the transition from the first to the second derivative and the interpretation of the results.
  • Additional comments suggest that once the critical point \( F_1 = 57.8 \) is identified, it can be used to find \( F_R \) and substitute into the second derivative relation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants are engaged in a discussion with varying levels of understanding and clarity regarding the derivative process. There is no consensus on the reasoning behind certain steps, and multiple viewpoints on the interpretation of the derivatives are present.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the need for clearer connections between the equations and the substitutions made, indicating potential gaps in assumptions or steps that may not be fully articulated in the provided solution.

Drain Brain
Messages
143
Reaction score
0
Hello! :)

Here's another problem that I want to fully understand how it was solved.

The part that I'm having a hard time with is the taking-derivatives of some equations. Why did the solver decide to take the derivative of equation 2. And why the second derivative of equation 1 became like that(encircled with red)?
It's the taking-derivatives of things I'm most confused(not the taking derivatives, but the reasoning of the solver why did he take that route.) THANKS!
 

Attachments

  • mechanicsCHII-53.jpg
    mechanicsCHII-53.jpg
    85.2 KB · Views: 121
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
The problem is looking for the minimum [math]F_R[/math], which requires us to take a derivative. (The derivative of a function is 0 at a relative minimum point.) So we set the 1st derivative to 0. Once that is done we need to see if the value of [math]F_R[/math] given by the 1st derivative is a relative minimum or a relative maximum. The 2nd derivative test does this.

As for the second derivative:
The first derivative equation is:
[math]2F_R ~ \frac{d F_R}{d F_1} = 2F_1 - 115.69[/math]

Taking the derivative with respect to [math]F_1[/math]:
[math]2 \frac{d F_R}{d F_1} \cdot \frac{d F_R}{d F_1} + 2 F_R ~ \frac{d^2 F_R}{d F_1 ^2} = 2[/math]
Now just divide by 2.

(The derivative of the LHS is done by the product rule: [math]\frac{d}{dx} f(x)g(x) = \frac{df}{dx} g(x) + f(x) \frac{dg}{dx}[/math]. Also note that I have taken the derivative on the LHS in a different order than your source so it matches the "usual order" when using the product rule.)

-Dan
 
Hello Everyone! :)

Just want to ask how did the solution arrive at the part where it substitutes $F_{1}=57.8$(which, I suppose the critical point of the first derivative) and $\frac{d F_R}{d F_1}=0$ to the 2nd derivative.

$\displaystyle \frac{d F_R}{d F_1} \cdot \frac{d F_R}{d F_1} + F_R ~ \frac{d^2 F_R}{d F_1 ^2} = 1$ I only see $\frac{d F_R}{d F_1}$ but not $F_{1}$, where I can substitute their values.

which results in

$\frac{d^2 F_R}{d F_1 ^2}=0.00263>0$ --->>> how did it arrive here? I know what this result means, it tells us the point of minimum. But I don't understand how did that happen.

Need an Immediate help here!
 
Last edited:
Help please! Up! Up! :(
 
Drain Brain said:
Help please! Up! Up! :(
Hi Drain Brain:
In the solution notice that equation (2) gives a relation between FR and F1. Once you have F1, simply find FR using equation (2) and replace into the 2nd derivative relation.
 

Similar threads

Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
Replies
11
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
4K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K