The big bang singularity and black hole singularity

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of singularities in the context of the big bang model and black holes. Participants explore the implications of these singularities, questioning their physical reality and considering alternative models that may replace them. The conversation includes theoretical aspects and conceptual clarifications related to cosmology and general relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the singularity in the big bang model is often cited as the universe's starting point, but there is skepticism about its reality.
  • Others propose that with inflation theory, an initial quantum fluctuation may have initiated inflation, making it impossible to trace back to a singular state.
  • Loop quantum cosmology is mentioned as an alternative, where a previous universe collapses and bounces back without reaching a singularity.
  • Questions arise about the meaning of a "one-dimensional point" in the context of black hole singularities, with some arguing it implies no physical size.
  • One participant asserts that describing the singularity as a one-dimensional point is problematic, suggesting it is more accurately a spacelike line in the context of Schwarzschild black holes.
  • There is a contention regarding whether a one-dimensional point is physically possible, with some expressing doubt and others dismissing the terminology as nonsensical.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the nature of singularities and their implications. There is no consensus on the reality of singularities or the validity of the terminology used to describe them.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding singularities, including the dependence on definitions and the challenges in reconciling theoretical models with physical reality. The discussion remains open-ended regarding the implications of these concepts.

wolram
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In the big bang model the singularity is all ways quoted as being the start of the universe, but AFAIK scientists do not accept the singularity as real, the same with the black hole singularity, what is proposed to be in their place?

from Wiki.
The initial singularity was the gravitational singularity of infinite density thought to have contained all of the mass and spacetime of the Universe[1] before quantum fluctuations caused it to rapidly expand in the Big Bang and subsequent inflation, creating the present-day Universe.[2] The initial singularity is part of the Planck epoch, the earliest period of time in the history of the universe

http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_blackholes_singularities.html
SINGULARITIES

In the centre of a black hole is a gravitational singularity, a one-dimensional point which contains a huge mass in an infinitely small space, where density and gravity become infinite and space-timecurves infinitely, and where the laws of physics as we know them cease to operate. As the eminent American physicist Kip Thorne describes it, it is "the point where all laws of physics break down"

Here they talk of a one dimensional point is that even possible?
 
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wolram said:
In the big bang model the singularity is all ways quoted as being the start of the universe, but AFAIK scientists do not accept the singularity as real, the same with the black hole singularity, what is proposed to be in their place?
There are multiple ideas.

With inflation, it's often proposed that there was an initial quantum fluctuation in the finite past which kicked off inflation. This initial quantum fluctuation would have selected a value of the inflaton field that was high enough in energy over a finite region to start off inflation. With this model, it's not possible to simply extrapolate backward in time to find this initial state.

With loop quantum cosmology, there was a previous collapsing universe which, once it became sufficiently dense, bounced back and started expanding again. No singularity is reached during the bounce.
 
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On the question of the blavk hole singularity what do they mean by a one dimensional point is that even possible?
 
wolram said:
On the question of the blavk hole singularity what do they mean by a one dimensional point is that even possible?
It means it has no physical size. It's one-dimensional in the sense that it still extends through time, but has no spatial dimensions at all.

No, I'm pretty sure that it's not possible. It's essentially dividing by zero.
 
wolram said:
On the question of the blavk hole singularity what do they mean by a one dimensional point is that even possible?
The rough translation of "a one dimensional point" is "I have no idea what I'm talking about so I'm just going to say things".
 
wolram said:
In the centre of a black hole is a gravitational singularity, a one-dimensional point

No, it isn't. If we are going to try to describe the singularity in these terms, it's a spacelike line, not a point. This is assuming we're talking about a Schwarzschild black hole (i.e., not rotating or charged).

Chalnoth said:
It's one-dimensional in the sense that it still extends through time

The black hole singularity in Schwarzschild spacetime is spacelike, not timelike. It should be thought of as a moment of time, not a place in space.
 

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