Thermodynamics Help Understanding Controlled Mass/Volume

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concepts of controlled mass and controlled volume in thermodynamics, particularly in the context of heating air in a rigid container. Participants explore the relationships between pressure, temperature, volume, and density during these processes, seeking clarification on how these variables interact under specific conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states that in a controlled volume process, pressure and temperature increase when heat is added, with mass remaining constant in a rigid container.
  • Another participant clarifies that a control volume is an arbitrary volume where the mass of the fluid remains constant, emphasizing that in a rigid container, the volume cannot change.
  • There is a suggestion that heating air in a rigid container causes the molecules to move faster and become less dense, which raises questions about the relationship between volume, density, and mass.
  • A participant provides an example of a rigid box filled with air, explaining that while temperature increases, the volume remains constant, leading to an increase in pressure according to the ideal gas law.
  • Concerns are raised about the understanding of how heating affects volume and density, with a participant expressing confusion over the implications of mass, volume, and density relationships.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the concepts of controlled mass and controlled volume. While some agree on the basic principles of pressure and temperature changes in a rigid container, there is disagreement and confusion about the implications for volume and density, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for clarification on the definitions and relationships between pressure, temperature, volume, and density in the context of thermodynamic processes, particularly under conditions of constant volume and mass.

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Thermodynamics Help ... Understanding Controlled Mass/Volume

I don't understand the these processes. Please let me know if I am correct or not. If not, please correct me. Thanks.

From what I know, when you have a controlled volume process the pressure and temperature increase when heat is added. This is in a rigid container so no mass leaves or enters. So it is controlled mass as well, right?

But I do not understand how this is referred to as controlled volume. When you heat air then the volume increases and the density decreases, resulting in the mass remaining the same, correct.

Also, if you know the energy of individual fluids and 'x' amount of energy is added to the above system, and then you know the resulting total energy after the addition. How do you paredo out how much energy goes to which fluid or the new temperature.
 
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Control volume does exactly what it says on the tin. It's simply an arbitrary volume that does not change in which the mass of the fluid remains constant.

If you had a rigid container and heater the air, it can't increase in volume as its contained. The volume and mass remain the same so the pressure increases.

I don't get what you don't understand, could you rephrase it please?
 


xxChrisxx said:
Control volume does exactly what it says on the tin. It's simply an arbitrary volume that does not change in which the mass of the fluid remains constant.

If you had a rigid container and heater the air, it can't increase in volume as its contained. The volume and mass remain the same so the pressure increases.

I don't get what you don't understand, could you rephrase it please?

I thought that since you are in a rigid container the heating of air results in the molecules separating (becoming less dense) and moving faster. Therefore increasing in volume and causing the pressure to increase.

To tell you the truth I really don't understand. I just keep reading different things and need help understand what happens when you heat air in a fixed container.

The only consistent thing I have read is that both pressure and temperature increase but I do not know what happens to the volume and density. I thought there were both changing in a way that allows for the mass to remain constant, mass = volume * density.

Thank you for the reply. I really appreciate it.
 


If you have a box 10*10*10 cm. You have 1 L of volume. The box is rigid and filled with air at 1 bar.

We heat the contents of the box, the air increases in temperature. If there were no box constraining it, it would remain at 1 bar but take more volume according to Pv=nRT.

Now as the box is rigid no matter how much you increase the temperature the volume of air connot exceed 1L. As such the pressure increases according to PV=nRT.

In both cases the mass of the gas remains the same. In the control volume case, density and volume also remains the same. only pressure changes with temperature.

If the gas is free to expand, its pressure will remain constant, but its volume will increase making the density decrease.
 

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