Time dilation and 2 identical clocks

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of time dilation as it relates to two identical clocks, one stationary and one moving at a velocity v. Participants explore the implications of light travel times in different frames of reference, the nature of clocks, and the conditions under which time can be measured accurately.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a scenario involving two identical clocks and questions whether the observer will see the moving clock ticking slower than the stationary clock, based on light travel times.
  • Another participant argues that a clock must complete a cycle to be considered a clock, suggesting that without a mirror, the proposed design cannot function as a proper clock.
  • Some participants clarify that the measurement of time depends on the synchronization of clocks and the relativity of simultaneity, indicating that proper time can only be measured when events occur at the same location.
  • There is a discussion about whether a sand timer can be considered a clock, with some arguing that it can measure time at a point but requires specific conditions to be valid.
  • One participant suggests that time measurement can occur without a feedback mechanism, citing examples like the half-life of radioactive materials, challenging the necessity of cyclic motion in clocks.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on what constitutes a clock and the conditions necessary for accurate time measurement. There is no consensus on whether the proposed design can be considered a clock, and discussions about synchronization and the relativity of simultaneity remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the proposed clock design, particularly regarding the need for synchronization and the implications of simultaneity conventions. The discussion also touches on the complexities of measuring time in different frames of reference.

  • #91
Ross Arden said:
there is no observer on the ship

The observer external to the ship will percieve the egg timer on the ship as ticking faster than the egg timer at rest wrt the observer

It occurs to me that you may be misunderstanding what we mean when we say that the external observer will observe that the clock on the ship is running slow compared to the time-keeping devices that are at rest relative to him.

Let's say that three minutes pass on the clock aboard the ship, and during that time an egg is cooked aboard the ship. It will be a perfectly-cooked three minute egg, and all observers, regardless of their state of motion relative to it, will observe that it did indeed take three minutes to cook it. They will all agree that three minutes went by on the timer and that that is the reason the egg came out perfectly cooked.

This is an example of what we call a relativistic invariant. It simply means that all observers, regardless of their motion relative to a device used to make a measurement, will agree on the result of the measurement. In this case the measurement is 3 minutes. But the measurement could also be of the air pressure inside the ship. If a pressure gauge inside the ships reads 101 kPa, all observers will agree that the gauge reads 101 kPa.

The reason we say that the external observer will conclude that the egg timer is running slow is because of the results of measurements that he takes with other clocks. Clocks that are at rest with respect to that external observer, and synchronized in the rest frame of that external observer, are carefully placed so that one is next to the ship when the timer starts and the other is next to the ship when the timer stops. They might show that, for example, five minutes of time passed while the egg was cooking. This would be the case if the ship were moving at a speed of ##\frac{4}{5}c## relative to your external observer.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: PeterDonis, jbriggs444 and Pencilvester

Similar threads

  • · Replies 58 ·
2
Replies
58
Views
5K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 33 ·
2
Replies
33
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 88 ·
3
Replies
88
Views
7K
  • · Replies 29 ·
Replies
29
Views
3K
  • · Replies 55 ·
2
Replies
55
Views
5K
  • · Replies 37 ·
2
Replies
37
Views
4K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
1K