Troubleshooting Analog Delay Line Simulation in Multisim

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    Analog Delay Line
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around troubleshooting an analog delay line simulation in Multisim, focusing on the properties of transmission lines, including reflection and attenuation. Participants are examining the circuit design and simulation results, particularly in relation to low pass filters and their effectiveness in demonstrating the desired characteristics.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes their attempt to construct an analog delay using low pass filters and reports not observing any reflections on the oscilloscope.
  • Another participant requests waveform details and questions the utility of a capacitor in the circuit, as well as the output resistance of the voltage source.
  • A participant shares their observed waveforms for sine and square pulse inputs, noting the presence of delay but absence of reflection effects.
  • Questions are raised about the target characteristic impedance (Zo) of the transmission line, with one participant suggesting that the circuit appears lossy due to the resistor values used.
  • Another participant emphasizes the importance of knowing the Zo to calculate expected reflections from mismatched terminations and critiques the high resistance values representing the dielectric conductance.
  • A participant argues that the circuit as drawn may not function as a transmission line due to the configuration of the filter banks and suggests the need for inductance in the return path.
  • This participant also notes that the time constant of each stage must be significantly greater than the signal's edge rate for the lumped model approximation to hold.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the effectiveness of the current circuit design and the necessity of certain parameters, such as Zo. There is no consensus on the best approach to achieve the desired simulation outcomes, and multiple competing perspectives on circuit configuration and component values are present.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential limitations in the circuit design, including assumptions about the reference potentials and the appropriateness of component values for achieving the desired transmission line behavior.

Hiranya Pasan
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I'm trying to construct an analog delay (series of low pass filters) and demonstrate the properties of a transmission line (reflection, attenuating etc.) using a multisim simulation (my attempt attached below). But on the oscilloscope I don't get any kind of reflection. What should I do?
1zlzlgh.jpg

Thank you
 
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Can you show us the waveforms you are getting? Also, I don't think C1 will do much of anything useful if you are driving the input to the TL with an idea voltage source. What is the output resistance that you have assigned to V1? Is V1 a sine wave source or a pulse source?
 
This is the wave form I get for sine and square pulse inputs
347i4v9.jpg
2v0ew7p.jpg

I get the the delay output but no reflection effects. First I tried to get the waveform for an open circuit.
 
What is the target Zo for your TL? It sure looks very lossy -- are those 1000 Ohm resistors in the TL?
 
berkeman said:
What is the target Zo for your TL? It sure looks very lossy -- are those 1000 Ohm resistors in the TL?

No such target, but I only need to demonstrate delay and reflection effects. No need to use specific values.
 
Hiranya Pasan said:
No such target, but I only need to demonstrate delay and reflection effects. No need to use specific values.
Well, you need the Zo to calculate the expected reflections of any mismatched termination, no?

Also, why is it so lossy? The parallel resistances are meant to represent the conductance of the dielectric insulator in the TL (at the test frequency). 1000 Ohms is way too much conductance, IMO.
 
I don't think the circuit as drawn will work because it's not a transmission line. The main issue is each filter bank is referenced to the same potential. To make this work you'll need inductance in the return between each too. Also, to make the lumped model approximation correct the time constant of each stage has to be >> than the edge rate of the signal (which is not the same as it's frequency). (Note: because "ground" is not the same on both sides of the filter you'll need to find the delay through the two port network. This is not the same as the equations you typically use for a garden variety LC filter.) This is definitely the hard way to do it but if you can make it work, and know why it is working, then you'll definitely have a much better understanding of transmission lines.
 
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