Understanding Exact vs. Closed Forms for Mechanical Engineers

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concepts of closed and exact forms in the context of differential forms, particularly from the perspective of a mechanical engineer seeking to deepen their understanding of these mathematical terms. Participants explore the definitions, implications, and relationships between these concepts, as well as their relevance to physical examples, especially in relation to conservative forces.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the terms "closed" and "exact" forms, seeking a deeper understanding beyond memorization.
  • Another participant references a previous post that may clarify the usage of these terms, though it humorously acknowledges the difficulty of the topic.
  • A participant connects closed forms to conservative forces, suggesting that a closed form can represent such forces and that an exact form relates to a potential function.
  • It is noted that every exact form is closed, citing mathematical relationships such as curl(gradΦ)=0 and div(curlA)=0.
  • However, a question is raised about whether every closed form is exact, with a counterexample provided (the Dirac magnetic monopole) to illustrate that this is not necessarily the case.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and agreement regarding the definitions and implications of closed and exact forms. There is no consensus on whether every closed form is exact, as counterexamples are acknowledged.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity of the relationship between closed and exact forms, with references to specific mathematical contexts and counterexamples that illustrate the limitations of generalizations in this area.

observer1
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(I am a mechanical engineer, trying to make up for a poor math education)'

I understand that:
  1. A CLOSED form is a differential form whose exterior derivative is 0.0.
  2. An EXACT form is the exterior derivative of another form.

And it stops right there. I am teaching myself differential forms. And as I ratchet up my understanding, I encounter these words--closed and exact--but I am not yet comfortable with their use.

As a result, I MEMORIZE the two words and their definitions. I do this to get through some rough spots as I continue to learn. But now I am at a point where I am hungering to know why these words matter.

It would help me, I think, if I knew WHY those words were used. In other words, I just just as easily have written:
  1. A TOMATO form is a differential form whose exterior derivative is 0.0.
  2. A POTATO form is the exterior derivative of another form.
Please forgive my sarcasm, but I am trying to get BEYOND memorizing the words. Why were those two words chosen?

And, if you can, answer in terms of pure theoretical math AND, if possible, with a meaningful (perhaps physical for a mechanical engineer) example.

For example, I THINK I UNDERSTAND that for the case of 1D integration of a form along a line that is CLOSED (like a closed loop or closed circle), that the signed definite integral of the form from "a" to "a-gain" is zero. Does that word CLOSED have anything to do with a the word describing the form. And is this related to the work done by a conservative force in a closed loop? I am almost at the point of seeing that a closed form can represent a conservative force, and an exact form represents a potential function. However, I cannot disambiguate the words CLOSED and EXACT since they all seem to mean the same thing in physics... I just need to see these two words separated.
 
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fresh_42 said:
Maybe it gets you closer to the exact usage of the terms.
:doh:
It is so bad that it is funny ... :bow:
 
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observer1 said:
And is this related to the work done by a conservative force in a closed loop? I am almost at the point of seeing that a closed form can represent a conservative force, and an exact form represents a potential function.

An exact form can be derived from a potential, so it is related to conservative forces, eg. the circumstances in which E=gradΦ, or in which B=curlA.

Every exact form is closed, eg. curl(gradΦ)=0 and div(curlA)=0.

But is every closed form exact? For example, if we see that div(B)=0, can we infer that B=curlA?

We cannot because we can produce counterexamples, eg. the Dirac magnetic monopole. This is mentioned eg. in Abanov's notes on differential forms http://felix.physics.sunysb.edu/~abanov/Teaching/Spring2009/phy680.html or in Deschamps's article http://www-liphy.ujf-grenoble.fr/pagesperso/bahram/biblio/Deschamps1981_dif_forms.pdf.
 
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