What causes the potential (voltage) in a conductor to rise?

[parsec]

Thanks, I think the reason I assumed that potential was some intrinsic property was because I was confusing it with the electric field. I did some reading and realized that they're different things. I guess potential is meaningless unless there is some avenue for it to do work through (i.e. an impedance).

--- Potential is not meaningless even if there's no resistance. As I previously said, there are different definitions of potential, first be clear which is what you are implying.

Running with this classical hydrostatic-esque model, what then determines the propagation speed of a voltage "signal"? In hydrostatics/dynamics the speed of pressure propagation is a relatively straightforward concept.

--- Voltage signal propagation and actual charge propagation are two different things. If you are interested in the former, you just need some exposure on the Electromagnetic Wave theory. Tranmission LIne Waveguides are good places to work. Only in THAT context does the SIGNAL propagation by CHAIN reactions makes sense. In a conductor where charge flow is necessary to charge a capacitor at the output (like in a CMOS circuit) things DO NOT MOVE at the speed of light. That's why your computer STILL runs at 3 GHz at 1V supply voltage.



I'm imagining that the potential applied at one terminal of the circuit pushes on the first charge carriers, which then push on charge carriers further inside the conductor. This idea seems a bit broken though, as it would result in a signal propagation speed that is some function of the mean free path etc. (I remember someone mentioning that the propagation speed is the speed of light)


---> Mean free path and signal propagation at c are VERY different. See my comments above.


I guess a more indepth question I was trying to resolve is, what is the mechanism for the potential being applied to charge carriers at some arbitrary distance away from the terminals. Is it the same as the hydraulic analogy where pressure is applied to one end of a tube and is then distributed through the tube through particle interactions, or is it more complicated?

---> See this: https://nanohub.org/resources/5345
What makes current flow?

Thanks. I'll be sure to check out the links. I'm fairly sure my speculation here is wrong, so think of it more as an invitation for people to poke holes in my bad understanding of these concepts.

We're driving at resolving the fundamental issue here, which I guess in a nutshell is to do with what a voltage signal is, how it propagates through a conductor and how it relates to charges flowing.

I have heard many (contradictory) ideas to do with the role of impedance in the measurement of a voltage signal, so I'm just trying to sort it all out.

 

[Born2bwire]

The circuit laws are just special cases of the electromagnetic equations given by Maxwell's equations. A signal in the circuit is propagated by an electromagnetic wave, this wave will travel on the order of the speed of light. Since the power and signal is encompassed in this wave, the signal will propagate much much faster than the charges will (and in the case of AC currents, there are no net movement of charges anyway). This is one reason why the electrons do not need to "know" what is ahead of them in the circuit, the movement of the charges and such in a DC and AC circuit settles down very very quickly. For all practical purposes, we make our measurements only after the bulk behavior of the circuit has settled in.

Voltage is the potential difference. It is the energy required to move a charge from point A to point B in the circuit. The voltage drop across a good conductor is assumed to be approximately zero. It is non-zero, it's very small, and only significant when you have a very long run of conductor or AC signals. This means that the energy lost by the charges moving along a wire is very very small. The resistor is a device that is meant to convert the movement of the electrons into heat, this relationship is described by Ohm's Law and is related on a more basic level by Drude's model. The electrons, moving along because of the applied electric field (from the electromagnetic wave or applied DC field), will collide with the material, transferring kinetic energy. The collisions create vibrations in the material which is heat. Since the resistor is designed to absorb a lot of heat from the electrons, it causes an appreciable drop in energy and thus has a voltage drop.

Voltage moves down as you go along a circuit because it is a potential difference, the energy to move a charge from point A to point B, so it stands that as A approaches B in a circuit (disregarding any sources between the two) that the voltage should decrease as well.

 

[user111_23]

The circuit laws are just special cases of the electromagnetic equations given by Maxwell's equations. A signal in the circuit is propagated by an electromagnetic wave, this wave will travel on the order of the speed of light. Since the power and signal is encompassed in this wave, the signal will propagate much much faster than the charges will (and in the case of AC currents, there are no net movement of charges anyway). This is one reason why the electrons do not need to "know" what is ahead of them in the circuit, the movement of the charges and such in a DC and AC circuit settles down very very quickly. For all practical purposes, we make our measurements only after the bulk behavior of the circuit has settled in.

Voltage is the potential difference. It is the energy required to move a charge from point A to point B in the circuit. The voltage drop across a good conductor is assumed to be approximately zero. It is non-zero, it's very small, and only significant when you have a very long run of conductor or AC signals. This means that the energy lost by the charges moving along a wire is very very small. The resistor is a device that is meant to convert the movement of the electrons into heat, this relationship is described by Ohm's Law and is related on a more basic level by Drude's model. The electrons, moving along because of the applied electric field (from the electromagnetic wave or applied DC field), will collide with the material, transferring kinetic energy. The collisions create vibrations in the material which is heat. Since the resistor is designed to absorb a lot of heat from the electrons, it causes an appreciable drop in energy and thus has a voltage drop.

Voltage moves down as you go along a circuit because it is a potential difference, the energy to move a charge from point A to point B, so it stands that as A approaches B in a circuit (disregarding any sources between the two) that the voltage should decrease as well.

YES. Exactly what I was trying to say.

 

[sokrates]

The circuit laws are just special cases of the electromagnetic equations given by Maxwell's equations. A signal in the circuit is propagated by an electromagnetic wave, this wave will travel on the order of the speed of light

This is very wrong and misleading. The entire field of photonics is trying to bring RF into the silicon chip - the sole reason is to avoid the HUGE delay in the interconnects...

If "circuits" operated at the speed of light, we would practically solve ALL VLSI problems... So before commenting further, please divide the channel length of the current day transistor ( ~ 50 nm ) to the speed of light ( 3 x 10^10 cm /s ) and calculate the delay...

let me first state a FACT : the delay of the state of the art MOSFET in a single INVERTER is 1 picoseconds... you can check this as well as other facts from itrs.gov

If you work out the numbers you'll see that we are really, really FAR AWAY from THE SPEED OF LIGHT...

It is true that, voltage perturbations CAN flow at the speed of light, but this cannot be stated in general for a circuit where a charging and discharging of a capacitor is concerned, because a comparison between the actual flow of carriers (drift velocity) and the RC time constant of the mediating medium need to be analyzed to decide whether we are really dealing with a voltage "wave" or not...

 

[Born2bwire]

I said that the signal propagation is on the order of the speed of light, you are talking about something different. The operation of a circuit element is usually done by the carriers themselves which we have already stated move very slowly.

 

[user111_23]

Look you are completely wrong about this. What domino reaction are you talking about? It doesn't work like that.

It's NOT the "flow of energy" (if you are not specifically talking about an electromagnetic wave on a waveguide etc..), it's the flow of CHARGE in a resistor.
Start from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current

I am not wrong at all. Look at this paragraph from http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/index.html" :

"The tube is full of marbles, just as a conductor is full of free electrons ready to be moved by an outside influence. If a single marble is suddenly inserted into this full tube on the left-hand side, another marble will immediately try to exit the tube on the right. Even though each marble only traveled a short distance, the transfer of motion through the tube is virtually instantaneous from the left end to the right end, no matter how long the tube is. With electricity, the overall effect from one end of a conductor to the other happens at the speed of light: a swift 186,000 miles per second! Each individual electron, though, travels through the conductor at a much slower pace."

 

[sokrates]

But that's the part I am really not getting. What's the difference between signal propagation and the (accumulation of a) voltage signal at the output of a capacitor?

Or let me ask it this way, what parts of a silicon chip operate at the speed of light then?

 

[sokrates]

I am not wrong at all. Look at this paragraph from http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/index.html" :

"The tube is full of marbles, just as a conductor is full of free electrons ready to be moved by an outside influence. If a single marble is suddenly inserted into this full tube on the left-hand side, another marble will immediately try to exit the tube on the right. Even though each marble only traveled a short distance, the transfer of motion through the tube is virtually instantaneous from the left end to the right end, no matter how long the tube is. With electricity, the overall effect from one end of a conductor to the other happens at the speed of light: a swift 186,000 miles per second! Each individual electron, though, travels through the conductor at a much slower pace."

You used the marble example in the context of the working principle of a light bulb. You are obviously a beginner in this, so instead of getting into ego wars with me, try to catch a few things and you'll learn. I am at least 10 years ahead of you, and this is what I do every day.

ALL ABOUT CIRCUITS is a good zero-level introduction to these concepts and it cannot be taken as a serious reference for me, as a scientist working in the field. These analogies are often very dangerous because they imply more than what they intend to convey... And if you read what I say carefully, I am not denying the fact that a voltage signal can propagate at c - as is the case in a transmission line waveguide (see above)

 

[user111_23]

You used the marble example in the context of the working principle of a light bulb. You are obviously a beginner in this, so instead of getting into ego wars with me, try to catch a few things and you'll learn. I am at least 10 years ahead of you, and this is what I do every day.

ALL ABOUT CIRCUITS is a good zero-level introduction to these concepts and it cannot be taken as a serious reference for me, as a scientist working in the field. These analogies are often very dangerous because they imply more than what they intend to convey... And if you read what I say carefully, I am not denying the fact that a voltage signal can propagate at c - as is the case in a transmission line waveguide (see above)

Alright I give up. :tongue: I'm just a high school sophomore anyway.

 

[Born2bwire]

But that's the part I am really not getting. What's the difference between signal propagation and the (accumulation of a) voltage signal at the output of a capacitor?

Or let me ask it this way, what parts of a silicon chip operate at the speed of light then?

None, but the signal propagation along the interconnects of a chip is on the order of the speed of light (around 1%-50% of c in the medium perhaps depending on the type of transmission line) since it is done by electromagnetic waves. I'm talking about the propagation of the signal, not the creation of a signal. The charges that accumulate on the capacitor move slowly but the propagation of the changes in the voltages due to the charge accumulation propagate via a different mechanism, the electromagnetic waves.

The explanation was in response to a common question that people have, how do the charges seem to have prior knowledge of the circuit elements ahead of them before they actually reach that element? This is because the voltages/signals that create the forces that the charges respond to, whether in a passive circuit element like a resistor or the source on an active transistor, propagate throughout the circuit at a time scale much much smaller than the time scale of interest in circuit theory. As soon as the charges have built up on the drain of a transistor to create a voltage difference, this signal is propagated via electromagnetic waves down the transmission into the next element, it is not done by the physical movement of the charges from the source pin to the next element.

In your prior posts you even used the language of "signal propagation" so I do not know what you are arguing about here.

 

[sokrates]

As soon as the charges have built up on the drain of a transistor to create a voltage difference, this signal is propagated via electromagnetic waves down the transmission into the next element, it is not done by the physical movement of the charges from the source pin to the next element.

See the NEXT Element is a capacitor as well. What is the NEXT element? It is the GATE CAPACITOR of the subsequent inverter.

And you won't see an instantaneous change in the voltage across a capacitor, you HAVE to PHYSICALLY supply the charges to create the voltage difference.

So even if there's an instantaneous perturbation along the interconnects, it doesn't do anything. The charges HAVE to be move UP AND DOWN... This is why there's ELECTROMIGRATION problems in the interconnects... After all if there was no movement, why would there be any electromigration?

So, wave propagation seems irrelevant here.

 

[Born2bwire]

I never said the change is instantaneous. I said the propagation of the signal is due to electromagnetic waves which travel on the order of the speed of light. I never talked about the speed of the devices or circuit elements, I am talking about the signal propagation. Honestly, this is what you stated in a previous post yourself and at this point I have no idea why you are arguing other than as a continued gross misinterpretation of my statements.

 

[sokrates]

I think we mostly agree.

I am sorry if I misinterpreted what you are trying to say. I resolved my confusions over your posts.