News What do you think should Kosovo be an independent country, or not?

[ardian007]

Basing it on history?

 

[russ_watters]

I am generally not in favor of making a little country for every ethnic group because the world has really moved past the nationalsim/ethnocentrism that led to the two world wars. That said, people were killing each other and that needed to be stopped - whatever it takes to prevent it should be done.

 

[PerennialII]

I'd favor a similar approach ... divide at first in order to calm things down as first priority, but the international community should have a second phase plan aiming in re-integration of the region. Local admins can be left in place to satisfy & take care of autonomical needs.

 

[BobG]

I am generally not in favor of making a little country for every ethnic group because the world has really moved past the nationalsim/ethnocentrism that led to the two world wars. That said, people were killing each other and that needed to be stopped - whatever it takes to prevent it should be done.

If the world had "really moved past the nationalism/ethnocentrism" phase, we wouldn't have had nearly as many problems in post-Yugoslavia, and wouldn't be having problems in Sierra Leone, Columbia, or Iraq. (Okay, we're splitting hairs - I think you meant the world has moved past nationalism/ethnocentrism being a viable solution).

I think the problems are more acute in the Middle East and Africa, due to national boundaries being created by colonialism with virtually no regard to the inhabitants actually living there. The same problem exists to a much smaller extent in Europe when weaker groups were incorporated into a powerful nation (Basques in Spain, Kosovo in Yugoslavia, the Scots and Irish under Great Britain for awhile).

How to resolve it from our present state is hard to figure. Obviously, creating a separate country for every ethnic group (or nation-people) isn't a very acceptable solution. Especially when you consider which nation-countries have the most nation-peoples within their borders. I don't know of a current list, but, just prior to the Soviet break-up, the top five countries for number of nations (people) within their border were:

1. China
2. India
3. Soviet Union
4. United States (Iriquois, Sioux, etc.)
5. Canada

Each deals with their minority groups in a different manner with a different amount of success - generally better than smaller countries which may not have a dominant nation-people running the nation-country. Maybe the only realistic solution is to keep on handling problems as they crop up until Russ's statement literally does become a reality.

 

[ramollari]

It's not a matter of the size of the country. There exist a lot of much smaller countries. The problem is with ethnic conflicts. Kosovo had become a second Bosnia during the year 1998. The Serbs massacred thousands of Kosovar Albanians and displaced hundreds of thousands more. This is pure genocide, and I'm sure that ethnic Albanians and ethnic Serbs cannot live together in peace in one country. So Kosovo should gain its eventual independence.

 

[ardian007]

So do you think that Milloshevic is innocent?

I am generally not in favor of making a little country for every ethnic group because the world has really moved past the nationalsim/ethnocentrism that led to the two world wars. That said, people were killing each other and that needed to be stopped - whatever it takes to prevent it should be done.

what are you talking about?
so according to you what happened in Bosnia, in Croatia, was something good!
Not at all man, there were thousends of innocent peoples killed, and some still that are suffering, it is just a matter of time, and Kosovo will be independent. What do you think about the Genocide and ethnik-cleansing happened during year 1999? Shame on you, you are talking about a problem for which you don't have the minimal idea of what to say, do you?
**** you, Milloshevic and everyone that comes from Serbia & Montenegro... Chi gioca con il fuoco finishe brucciandosi?

 

[russ_watters]

I think you may have misunderstood - I was referring to the NATO/UN intervention to stop the genocide and the other events that precipitated Milo's overthrow.

 

[su27killer]

what are you talking about?
so according to you what happened in Bosnia, in Croatia, was something good!
Not at all man, there were thousends of innocent peoples killed, and some still that are suffering, it is just a matter of time, and Kosovo will be independent. What do you think about the Genocide and ethnik-cleansing happened during year 1999? Shame on you, you are talking about a problem for which you don't have the minimal idea of what to say, do you?
**** you, Milloshevic and everyone that comes from Serbia & Montenegro... Chi gioca con il fuoco finishe brucciandosi?

Yeah Ardian you and those "Greek" above would like it independent but hopefully it won't happen. And I don't know what cleaning are you talking about, here in Montenegro there are over 30.000 Gypsies you "cleaned" from Kosovo together with NATO troops. Not to mention Serbs and Montenegrins. Thats such an obvious nazifaschism in 21st century. Shame on this world...

 

[Anttech]

What have the greeks go to do with it?

Kosovo should stay independent, as you can see the Balkans has serious historical problems. Mainly due to the Ottomans. Intergration won't help.

I am generally not in favor of making a little country for every ethnic group because the world has really moved past the nationalsim/ethnocentrism that led to the two world wars. That said, people were killing each other and that needed to be stopped - whatever it takes to prevent it should be done.

Russ, the world hasnt moved on unforutantly

 

[su27killer]

What have the greeks go to do with it?

Kosovo should stay independent,

It can't "stay" because it is not independent and it HAS NEVER BEEN.

Why ppl who don't know anything about the situation must say these stupid things?!

 

[arildno]

I am generally not in favor of making a little country for every ethnic group because the world has really moved past the nationalsim/ethnocentrism that led to the two world wars. That said, people were killing each other and that needed to be stopped - whatever it takes to prevent it should be done.

I agree; although I think that new state formation based on ethnicity might on occasion be the least bad solution in regions of the world that has not progressed much beyond tribalism.

Whether Kosovo is such a backwater, I don't know.

 

[Anttech]

It can't "stay" because it is not independent and it HAS NEVER BEEN.

Why ppl who don't know anything about the situation must say these stupid things?!

yeh yeh, I ment should be independent, and cut the sarcasim it makes you look like a child

And you failed to answer my Question, what has Greece got to do with it?

 

[su27killer]

yeh yeh, I ment should be independent, and cut the sarcasim it makes you look like a child

And you failed to answer my Question, what has Greece got to do with it?

1st : that would be same like I would say "Brussels has to be independent state" based on what I could get in our media. But that would prob sound equally stupid to you like your sentence is to me.

2nd : ramollari is from Greece, and is probably Albanian who hopes that some part of Greece could become independent, that's why I put "" aroung Greek.

I mean look at the **** and terrorism they made in Macedonia, is Milosevic and Serbs guilty for it?!

How many years Milosevic is Haag?! What have they proved?! NOTHING! I mean he has responsibility for things in republic where he is president the same way war general has responsibility for his squadron but what they are doing is just stupid. Bush and Clinton would be in jail already.

 

[Astronuc]

First of all, national borders are arbitrary and have historically been determined through violence.

I emphatically support and endorse the right of 'self-determination'.

If the people of Kosovo wish to live in their own country - so be it!

I remind those who are free or live in a nation of their predominant ethnic or cultural group

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

from the US Declaration of Independence - http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm

 

[Art]

First of all, national borders are arbitrary and have historically been determined through violence.

I emphatically support and endorse the right of 'self-determination'.

If the people of Kosovo wish to live in their own country - so be it!

I remind those who are free or live in a nation of their predominant ethnic or cultural group
from the US Declaration of Independence - http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm

So what happened to the US confederacy?? And what happens if the afro-americans in Louisianna decide to go for independence? Or what if people in your street want independence? Where does this right to self-determination end?

 

[russ_watters]

I'm going to have to agree with Art here

If we carved out a little chunk of land for every religious/ethnic group, there'd be tens of thousands of nations in the world, all based on nationalistic hate for all the others. That just isn't a morally acceptable or practically realistic way to run the world.

That quote from the Declaration of Independence (or the followups), Astronuc, doesn't say anything about not being able to live with England because of differences in ethnicity, religion, or culture. It's all about the divide caused by the Atlantic Ocean. Sometimes geographical boundaries make sense for a basis of political boundaries (in today's world, even that isn't necessary anymore though...).

Also, when I said that the world has "moved past nationalism", I meant that it is no longer an acceptable philosophy according to the consensus of the global community. Ie, the two world wars happened because nationalism was a game that everyone played. Today, there are only a few pockets of it left.

So I support Kosovo's independence - not because of a nationalistic or racist desire to be their own country - but because they, like us, were actually oppressed.

 

[Art]

Here's a quick history of Kosovo showing the current unrest in it's historical context for those interested.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/kosovo/110492.stm

 

[Astronuc]

So I support Kosovo's independence - not because of a nationalistic or racist desire to be their own country - but because they, like us, were actually oppressed.

That is my position. The Serbian government embarked on a rampage of genocide, and the population allowed it to happen. The Kosovars deserve, like anyone else, to live in secure environment, free from oppression.

 

[su27killer]

Huh at least half of Kosovo inhabitants have origin from Albania, I mean its much more but at least half. And if Serbian government did genocide on Kosovo why they can't prove it in Haague for already 5 years?!

 

[Astronuc]

And if Serbian government did genocide on Kosovo why they can't prove it in Haague for already 5 years?!

It's not that genocide or 'mass killings' are disputed, there are thousands of corpses as evidence, it is a matter of proving who is responsible!

I was also referring to people like Radovan Karadžić - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radovan_Karadžić

Ratko Mladić - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratko_Mladic

and Željko Ražnatović - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#War_crimes

I also am opposed to the KLA (UÇK) and any such organization that allows criminal activity.

 

[russ_watters]

It's not that genocide or 'mass killings' are disputed, there are thousands of corpses as evidence, it is a matter of proving who is responsible!

Not just that, but when the scale is so vast, there is a lot of evidence to go over. Compare that to Enron - the collapse of the company was 4 years ago and the trial for the CEO and CFO just started recently (in the past month or two).

The trial for Milo is underway and I'm certain of the outcome...

 

[su27killer]

It's not that genocide or 'mass killings' are disputed, there are thousands of corpses as evidence, it is a matter of proving who is responsible!

I was also referring to people like Radovan Karadžić - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radovan_Karadžić

Ratko Mladić - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratko_Mladic

and Željko Ražnatović - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#War_crimes

I also am opposed to the KLA (UÇK) and any such organization that allows criminal activity.

I agree with your post, but why are you presuming government is responsible?!

You know that civilian train was shooted on bridge near Nis when more than 20 civilians died and NATO accelerated video to show that pilot haven't had time to react when he's seen train.

Why Clinton and Jamie Shea arent in Haague then?! They are strong?! They have atomic weapons?!

 

[su27killer]

Not just that, but when the scale is so vast, there is a lot of evidence to go over. Compare that to Enron - the collapse of the company was 4 years ago and the trial for the CEO and CFO just started recently (in the past month or two).

The trial for Milo is underway and I'm certain of the outcome...

Dunno what trial for Milo has to do with Kosovo. Btw Milo is poor guy which officialy has 450 EUR per month

 

[russ_watters]

You know that civilian train was shooted on bridge near Nis when more than 20 civilians died and NATO accelerated video to show that pilot haven't had time to react when he's seen train.

Why Clinton and Jamie Shea arent in Haague then?! They are strong?! They have atomic weapons?!

The international community sees a moral difference between the attempted extermination of an entire race of people and the accidental killing of a small group of people while bombing a legitimate target in the effort to stop that genocide. If you don't agree with that, that's up to you, but the difference seems like the Grand Canyon to me - and most of the rest of the world.

 

[su27killer]

The international community sees a moral difference between the attempted extermination of an entire race of people and the accidental killing of a small group of people while bombing a legitimate target in the effort to stop that genocide. If you don't agree with that, that's up to you, but the difference seems like the Grand Canyon to me - and most of the rest of the world.

Extermination wasnt there till NATO started bombing, even then it wasnt government which forced them to leave but SOME OF frustrated Kosovo Serbs which weren't even in police let alone army.

And how is a train bridge legitimate target?! Why is that small group of ppl and when same number of Albanians are killed its genocide?!

 

[russ_watters]

Unreasonable and factually wrong questions don't get answers. Read up on what actually happened and why the international community thinks the way it does.

 

[Astronuc]

Another villian I missed in my previous post - Vojislav Sesel (Војислав Шешељ) and the Српскa радикалнa странкa.

The bombing of the train near Nis was an accident. The pilot dropped the bomb not knowing the train was approaching the target. During war, transportation infrastructure is a legitimate target to prevent mobilization and movement of troops.

Why do I hold the government responsible? Because the government has the authority, including command and control of the military. And I hold responsible the individuals who commit crimes against humanity, particularly against non-combatants, especially women and children.

Both sides of the conflict committed atrocities. There is plenty of guilt to go around.

As for Milošević, he and his wife ( Mirjana Marković) stole millions of dollars/euro/dinars.

About the trial - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobodan_Milosevic#Trial
It may not be 100% accurate, but it's the best I can find at the moment.

 

[su27killer]

Another villian I missed in my previous post - Vojislav Sesel (Војислав Шешељ) and the Српскa радикалнa странкa.

The bombing of the train near Nis was an accident. The pilot dropped the bomb not knowing the train was approaching the target. During war, transportation infrastructure is a legitimate target to prevent mobilization and movement of troops.

Why do I hold the government responsible? Because the government has the authority, including command and control of the military. And I hold responsible the individuals who commit crimes against humanity, particularly against non-combatants, especially women and children.

Both sides of the conflict committed atrocities. There is plenty of guilt to go around..

Yes, there are plenty of guilt, but I haven't seen albanian trial against Albanian who commited crime.

As for Milošević, he and his wife ( Mirjana Marković) stole millions of dollars/euro/dinars.

.

Thats true, and why western leaders haven't supported democratic opposition in 1996 but instead gave support to Milosevic like their crucial ally because of Dayton?!