News What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

[Lacy33]

http://www.accuracy.org/an-open-letter-to-president-barack-obama/

EXSQUEEZE ME!
Lacy Lou Who, Grinch University

thank you

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Yes, I live in the USA. And I'm not sure what you are implying by "effect of media coverage".

Well, I was just 'reflecting' on the fact that you have, during the last 5 years, become clear over the fact that most people in the Middle East live under 'dictatorial conditions' – by 'direct' contact.

I can’t be 100% sure, but my guess is that most Swedes that watch the news or reads a newspaper, have for >15 years been very clear on the 'rough situation' for 'everyday' people in the Middle East. Intifadas and the Gulf War 'opened the eyes' on most...

There have been others (that I know are from the USA) in this thread that doesn’t have a clue on why the people in Egypt are so angry...

Note: This is not any 'criticism' on you, U.S media, or the USA; we are much closer and have many Iraq refugees.

 

[Evo]

http://www.accuracy.org/an-open-letter-to-president-barack-obama/

That's not an acceptable source, but since it's just a *letter* to the President, I'll allow it. I'm sure that there are many letters to the President, so we don't need to start posting them all here.

 

[Proton Soup]

That's not an acceptable source, but since it's just a *letter* to the President, I'll allow it. I'm sure that there are many letters to the President, so we don't need to start posting them all here.

well, it had Chomsky in there. thanks for keeping it in any case.

and here is a piece from on the ground events a couple of days ago. includes reports of looting by police at the museum.

http://mondoweiss.net/2011/01/turkey-is-a-model.html

 

[WhoWee]

You’re alone on PF, and among most global news channels, in making this interpretation. Could you please quote the exact words from the Presidents where he clearly states he’s against Mubarak, and endorsing the people in the streets to continue the violence?

It seems that President Obama's words - over the past 2 years and last week - might have a degree of uncertainty?my bold


"Proton Soup Re: What Exactly Is Happening In Egypt?!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.accuracy.org/an-open-lett...-barack-obama/


An Open Letter to President Barack Obama
January 30, 2011 By journalist
Share

Dear President Obama:

As political scientists, historians, and researchers in related fields who have studied the Middle East and U.S. foreign policy, we the undersigned believe you have a chance to move beyond rhetoric to support the democratic movement sweeping over Egypt. As citizens, we expect our president to uphold those values.

For thirty years, our government has spent billions of dollars to help build and sustain the system the Egyptian people are now trying to dismantle. Tens if not hundreds of thousands of demonstrators in Egypt and around the world have spoken. We believe their message is bold and clear: Mubarak should resign from office and allow Egyptians to establish a new government free of his and his family’s influence. It is also clear to us that if you seek, as you said Friday “political, social, and economic reforms that meet the aspirations of the Egyptian people,” your administration should publicly acknowledge those reforms will not be advanced by Mubarak or any of his adjutants.

There is another lesson from this crisis, a lesson not for the Egyptian government but for our own. In order for the United States to stand with the Egyptian people it must approach Egypt through a framework of shared values and hopes, not the prism of geostrategy. On Friday you rightly said that “suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away.” For that reason we urge your administration to seize this chance, turn away from the policies that brought us here, and embark on a new course toward peace, democracy and prosperity for the people of the Middle East. And we call on you to undertake a comprehensive review of US foreign policy on the major grievances voiced by the democratic opposition in Egypt and all other societies of the region.

egyptletter.blogspot.com

Institutional affiliations are listed for identification purposes only. Views reflected in this letter are those of the individual signatories. "


I find the statement "a framework of shared values and hopes, not the prism of geostrategy" very interesting. Has President Obama somehow signaled to the Middle East and the World a willingness to walk away from our investments and hope for the best?

 

[Proton Soup]

EXSQUEEZE ME!
Lacy Lou Who, Grinch University

thank you

que? i don't understand

 

[turbo]

Al Jazeera English is providing comprehensive coverage on the situation in Egypt, including the reactions of foreign governments, reactions of markets, including currency markets. Al Jazeera has been blacked out in Egypt, but they can still get footage out and aired through other venues.

 

[mheslep]

also, an acceptable source: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/bab...erican-academics-urge-obama-oust-mubarak.html

...support the democratic movement sweeping over Egypt.
...
the major grievances voiced by the democratic opposition in Egypt...

We certainly hope this is a democratic movement, but so far all we see have for certain are mobs and mobs do not a democracy make. It strikes as highly arrogant of the letter authors to simply assert that this is fact the case.

 

[BilPrestonEsq]

Did the U.S. 'transition' peacefully into democracy or did we free ourselves with violence?
The U.S. was built by angry mobs!

 

[mheslep]

Did the U.S. 'transition' peacefully into democracy or did we free ourselves with violence?
The U.S. was built by angry mobs!

Nonsense. You are conflating violence and rebellion with the guiding force behind it. There were democracies in place throughout the colonies well before the first shot was fired at Concord. We don't yet know what's guiding the rebellion in Egypt, aside from a common resentment of Mubarak.

 

[WhoWee]

Did the U.S. 'transition' peacefully into democracy or did we free ourselves with violence?
The U.S. was built by angry mobs!

Do angry mobs keep electric, gas, and water turned on? Do angry mobs guarantee the availability of a food supply for 18 million people? Does an angry mob protect the weak? Does an angry mob put out fires and rebuild personal property damaged by war?

 

[nismaratwork]

Do angry mobs keep electric, gas, and water turned on? Do angry mobs guarantee the availability of a food supply for 18 million people? Does an angry mob protect the weak? Does an angry mob put out fires and rebuild personal property damaged by war?

In other words, as they say in Arab nations, "One hundred years of tyranny is preferable to one day of chaos."

I didn't expect that!

 

[WhoWee]

In other words, as they say in Arab nations, "One hundred years of tyranny is preferable to one day of chaos."

I didn't expect that!

I was responding to this:

"Originally Posted by BilPrestonEsq
Did the U.S. 'transition' peacefully into democracy or did we free ourselves with violence?
The U.S. was built by angry mobs! "

It didn't sound like he was proposing a one day event to me?

 

[nismaratwork]

I was responding to this:

"Originally Posted by BilPrestonEsq
Did the U.S. 'transition' peacefully into democracy or did we free ourselves with violence?
The U.S. was built by angry mobs! "

It didn't sound like he was proposing a one day event to me?

Did you just take a proverb based on a hadith in arabic... literally? Do I really need to spell out that a saying conveys a sentiment... and this is one you seem to share.

Or I could just be snide and say, "and look, the Mubarak regime is nearly third of the way to the OTHER end of the proverb... in one 'presidency'".

 

[nismaratwork]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/01/31/egypt.protests/index.html?hpt=T1

Good sign.

Cairo, Egypt (CNN) -- As anti-government demonstrations persist across Egypt and the country's military firmly puts its boots on the ground to establish order, the army said it won't deploy "violence" against the people.

A military spokesman said on state TV Monday that "freedom of opinion in a peaceful manner is allowed for all" and the "armed forces are aware of the legitimate demands of the honest citizens."

"The presence of the armed forces in the Egyptian streets is for your benefit to protect your safety and peace," said the spokesman for the army, which has been regarded favorably by many protesters who despise the police and see that institution as an ally.

The armed forces "will not use violence against this great people which have always played a significant role in every moment of Egypt's great history. And we reassure the armed forces are a force of stability and security for this great nation. The protection of the people is one of its core values," the spokesman said.

 

[WhoWee]

Did you just take a proverb based on a hadith in arabic... literally? Do I really need to spell out that a saying conveys a sentiment... and this is one you seem to share.

Or I could just be snide and say, "and look, the Mubarak regime is nearly third of the way to the OTHER end of the proverb... in one 'presidency'".

Too many things going on today.

 

[turbo]

Right now, the protesters are acting with restraint. Groups of them have tried to tamp down thefts and looting, and when the police abandoned the streets, they often filled into direct traffic and keep things moving smoothly. Today, the police are back on the streets.

 

[nismaratwork]

Right now, the protesters are acting with restraint. Groups of them have tried to tamp down thefts and looting, and when the police abandoned the streets, they often filled into direct traffic and keep things moving smoothly. Today, the police are back on the streets.

The police are going to be slaughtered if the army stands by and doesn't use violence as advertised.

 

[nismaratwork]

Too many things going on today.

I don't understand...?

 

[Evo]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/01/31/egypt.protests/index.html?hpt=T1

Good sign.

Is the military setting themselves up to be the new ruling force? Who is seen as the head of the military there?

 

[nismaratwork]

Is the military setting themselves up to be the new ruling force? Who is seen as the head of the military there?

Normally I'd say yes, but in Egypt Mubarak has been absurdly careful to keep the military happy... and CRUSH any ambitions in the General ranks. I'm sure that the military is discussing what to do now, but beyond the obvious heads of the various branches, there is literally nobody in the military whom the public would have primed to rally behind.

Any leader is either going to be ElBaradai, Mubarak, or a figurehead chosen by the military until elections can be held.

In egypt, you have compulsory service from 18-30 for men, and it's 450,000 strong! The military has never been a ruling force, or really one that aspired to rule, but rather a kind of heroic centerpiece that families take pride in. For better or worse, they don't love Israel, and their army did retake the Suez for a time. As a result, you have the army which is woven into society, with no obvious "strongman"... well... I suspect they won't want power long-term.

In the short term, Egypt really is one of the few places where short-term military rule is feasible without spawning a dictator, and it would keep Islamists from being either marginalized, or especially empowered.

 

[turbo]

The military is making noises about solidarity and the rights of citizens, which is good. Unfortunately, Mubarak's cabinet appointments (mostly a re-shuffling of the old guard) is almost 100% military, and that's not going to satisfy the citizens' desire for a less-autocratic government. Mubarak replaced the widely-despised Interior Minister, whose brutal state police are feared and hated. But, who did he choose as a replacement? Mahmoud Wagdi, a retired police general. Probably not a great move, since general officers in the state police won't be held in high regard by the populace.

 

[Proton Soup]

We certainly hope this is a democratic movement, but so far all we see have for certain are mobs and mobs do not a democracy make. It strikes as highly arrogant of the letter authors to simply assert that this is fact the case.

i find it highly arrogant that you characterize the people there as a mob.

 

[lisab]

We certainly hope this is a democratic movement, but so far all we see have for certain are mobs and mobs do not a democracy make. It strikes as highly arrogant of the letter authors to simply assert that this is fact the case.

I don't understand why you see it as arrogant. Hopeful, yes.

Wrt the mobs...and how would you advise them to get rid of Mubarak? Is there a 'cleaner' way to do it?

 

[mheslep]

i find it highly arrogant that you characterize the people there as a mob.

I don't mean to demean the people there. Mob: : a large or disorderly crowd; especially : one bent on riotous or destructive action. Apparently for the most part the "large disorderly crowd" has been fairly restrained, though I don't know that I would be after Mubarak had tortured and killed my friends and family. But aside from that they are per reports a large, disorderly crowd. So I retract mob and call them a large disorderly crowd. Do you know better?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Good sign.

Yes definitely.

It looks like the latest from CNN indicates that the army now is ready to discuss with the opposition. That is very positive, and if this is fulfilled, it’s a HISTORICAL MOMENT that will change the rest of the Middle East and large parts of the world – FOR THE BETTER!

I don’t want to be a "party pooper" when we got good news, but I think tomorrow will be The Day when the military must "come clean"... the prognosis is 1,000,000 protesters tomorrow (Tuesday). The 'government' has stopped all trains to prevent people from outside to get to Cairo. The latest report is now people are walking instead...

I have no idea how you control 1,000,000 angry protesters? By sitting in their tanks and 'inspecting' the 'crowd'...?

IF the "million prediction" is really happening – my guess is that the military must choose which side they are on, and I truly hope they chose the peaceful solution.


P.S. Who makes these predictions? Who are calling for people to gather? The "Facebook youth"? Who is their leader? Why doesn’t we hear anything from "the leaders" of this? Are there any "leaders"?? Or is all a "random gathering"...??

... many questions ...

 

[BilPrestonEsq]

I don't understand why you see it as arrogant. Hopeful, yes.

Wrt the mobs...and how would you advise them to get rid of Mubarak? Is there a 'cleaner' way to do it?

No, and that was my point about colonial america and mobs. They are trying to free themselves from a dictatorship that has been ruling them for decades. Are they going to just hand over that power to the people? "Ok here you go"...Yeah right. Could we have worked it out with the english over a cup of tea? "So, we are just going to stop paying you taxes and form our own country, is that cool?" " Ok by me." I am sure it would have happened just like that... Most likely the U.S. will get involved and we can teach them how to have a "democracy" like the one we have today. That way the aristocrats can hold onto their power... AND they can start having "elections" so that the people think they have the power. Then we can be sure that we can remain on good terms with an OPEC country. Perfect!

 

[mheslep]

I don't understand why you see it as arrogant. Hopeful, yes.

I think you missed what I defined as as 'it', which was not the crowds, but rather 'it' was the labeling of the rebellion as described by the authors as somehow democratic or that the outcome of the rebellion will be democratic:
democracy: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

Nobody knows that a democracy will be the outcome of the current rebellion if it is successful in deposing Mubarak. If there's some declaration of independence or rights for Egypt drawn up by the rebellion they need to stop keeping it to themselves. I certainly hope that it will be, both successful and democratic. There's some evidence that will not be democratic. Thus I think it is arrogant for the letter authors to simply state that it will be.

Wrt the mobs...and how would you advise them to get rid of Mubarak? Is there a 'cleaner' way to do it?

I don't get this. You seem to be suggesting I said the [STRIKE]mobs[/STRIKE] large disoderly crowds were a bad thing in of themselves, or that there was a better way. I did neither. They actually seem to be fairly restrained. My concern is the outcome. It might very well be another military dictatorship, or an Islamic caliphate. Neither would be democratic. That is my concern. None of that takes away from my enthusiasm for the people of Egypt to free them selves from Mubarak.

 

[WhoWee]

Yes definitely.

It looks like the latest from CNN indicates that the army now is ready to discuss with the opposition. That is very positive, and if this is fulfilled, it’s a HISTORICAL MOMENT that will change the rest of the Middle East and large parts of the world – FOR THE BETTER!

I don’t want to be a "party pooper" when we got good news, but I think tomorrow will be The Day when the military must "come clean"... the prognosis is 1,000,000 protesters tomorrow (Tuesday). The 'government' has stopped all trains to prevent people from outside to get to Cairo. The latest report is now people are walking instead...

I have no idea how you control 1,000,000 angry protesters? By sitting in their tanks and 'inspecting' the 'crowd'...?

IF the "million prediction" is really happening – my guess is that the military must choose which side they are on, and I truly hope they chose the peaceful solution.


P.S. Who makes these predictions? Who are calling for people to gather? The "Facebook youth"? Who is their leader? Why doesn’t we hear anything from "the leaders" of this? Are there any "leaders"?? Or is all a "random gathering"...??

... many questions ...

In a city of 18 million - a crowd of 1 million is realistic. As for leaders, perhaps they will begin to find their voice tomorrow - figure out what they actually want?

I haven't noticed any posts or stories regarding the newspapers in Egypt - are they state controlled - any city papers/tabloids?

 

[mheslep]

...Then we can be sure that we can remain on good terms with an OPEC country. Perfect!

Egypt does not have any significant oil, is not an OPEC country.

 

[WhoWee]

No, and that was my point about colonial america and mobs. They are trying to free themselves from a dictatorship that has been ruling them for decades. Are they going to just hand over that power to the people? "Ok here you go"...Yeah right. Could we have worked it out with the english over a cup of tea? "So, we are just going to stop paying you taxes and form our own country, is that cool?" " Ok by me." I am sure it would have happened just like that... Most likely the U.S. will get involved and we can teach them how to have a "democracy" like the one we have today. That way the aristocrats can hold onto their power... AND they can start having "elections" so that the people think they have the power. Then we can be sure that we can remain on good terms with an OPEC country. Perfect!

Please clarify- what do you want to see - civil war, (maybe?) pirates on the Suez Canal, or just a small blood bath in the streets (it's really not clear)?

 

[turbo]

In a city of 18 million - a crowd of 1 million is realistic. As for leaders, perhaps they will begin to find their voice tomorrow - figure out what they actually want?

I haven't noticed any posts or stories regarding the newspapers in Egypt - are they state controlled - any city papers/tabloids?

According to Al Jazeera, someone has been side-stepping state media and is handing out flyers with the names of political parties and potential candidates/leaders. No logos, no partisan slant (apart from leaving out Mubarak's party) and no idea who is behind the flyers.

Things are very complex in Egypt right now, and the situation can't be adequately addressed by the US's mainstream media with their short little sound-bites. Al Jazeera English is doing a wonderful job in this regard. Too good, apparently, since the Mubarak regime is actively blocking their broadcasts and has targeted their crews and confiscated their camera gear.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... might have a degree of uncertainty?

Hum... yes 'uncertainty' or maybe better; "balancing act" in a very tricky political situation...

I’m glad that you got 'compatible'... and of course you are welcome 'home'.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Al Jazeera English is doing a wonderful job

Ahh! Available the web!?

EDIT:
http://english.aljazeera.net/video/

 

[turbo]

Ahh! Available the web!?

EDIT:
http://english.aljazeera.net/video/

Yes, just Google for the link.

Edit: I see you've got it.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Yes, just Google for the link.

Edit: I see you've got it.

yes and this is even better:
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/spotlight/anger-in-egypt/

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... I’m worried for tomorrow ... all it takes is one nervous newbie and hell will break loose ... it was close already today ...

 

[turbo]

I watched NBC new tonight. Their live feeds from Egypt were really crappy with pixelation of the video and heavy distortion of the higher frequency audio. Al Jazeera manages to get better-quality footage out of Egypt than NBC... Hmmm

 

[nismaratwork]

Egypt does not have any significant oil, is not an OPEC country.

That's factually correct, but you might add for his information that the reason it IS significant to oil in the region is Suez.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I watched NBC new tonight. Their live feeds from Egypt were really crappy with pixelation of the video and heavy distortion of the higher frequency audio. Al Jazeera manages to get better-quality footage out of Egypt than NBC... Hmmm

... hummmmm, there’s a lot of "rat smelling" going on... the national Egypt TV is broadcasting the message – "the streets are full of *infiltrators* and dangerous criminals, please don’t go out" ...

 

[lisab]

... hummmmm, there’s a lot of "rat smelling" going on... the national Egypt TV is broadcasting the message – "the streets are full of *infiltrators* and dangerous criminals, please don’t go out" ...

I'm betting the Egyptians will be savvy enough to recognize BS when they hear it !

 

[nismaratwork]

... hummmmm, there’s a lot of "rat smelling" going on... the national Egypt TV is broadcasting the message – "the streets are full of *infiltrators* and dangerous criminals, please don’t go out" ...

They're WAY too angry to care at this point... I wouldn't worry.

 

[Proton Soup]

I don't mean to demean the people there. Mob: : a large or disorderly crowd; especially : one bent on riotous or destructive action. Apparently for the most part the "large disorderly crowd" has been fairly restrained, though I don't know that I would be after Mubarak had tortured and killed my friends and family. But aside from that they are per reports a large, disorderly crowd. So I retract mob and call them a large disorderly crowd. Do you know better?

as far as disorder goes, the best i can tell is that the people have ransacked police stations and burned a democratic national party building. they absolutely hate the police for some reason, that best i can tell is related to people being rounded up, held and tortured. read an account of a journalist that got the crap beat out of him by police for filming. reports from more than one that police looted the museum.

there is violence, but it seems to be fairly narrowly directed. and the accounts from people seem to be very sensitive of how the world views them. they don't want to be seen as uncivilized.

 

[Proton Soup]

I watched NBC new tonight. Their live feeds from Egypt were really crappy with pixelation of the video and heavy distortion of the higher frequency audio. Al Jazeera manages to get better-quality footage out of Egypt than NBC... Hmmm

they said on NPR today that it was possible to get internet, but that you had to basically use dialup to foreign ISPs. i can't image there is much bandwidth available doing that. even here, you need to be close to the phone company to get connections at 54K, so that must be much worse, forcing them to compress a lot. funny they wouldn't just satellite uplink it. al jazeera probably has a much better sneaker net there, too.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Egypt museum had some looting. Without tourism egypt becomes sudan

 

[WhoWee]

Egypt museum had some looting. Without tourism egypt becomes sudan

...and with a splintered military, the Canal could turn into the coast of Somalia.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Slashdot.org reporting egypt pulled it's last ISP. No Internet for Egypt.

 

[turbo]

Slashdot.org reporting egypt pulled it's last ISP. No Internet for Egypt.

Need satellite links to get anything out of Egypt now. Al Jazeera has already sussed that out a long time ago after getting stiffed by autocratic Arabic regimes. Hope they can keep the information flowing tomorrow (Week anniversary of the protests.)

 

[WhoWee]

Need satellite links to get anything out of Egypt now. Al Jazeera has already sussed that out a long time ago after getting stiffed by autocratic Arabic regimes. Hope they can keep the information flowing tomorrow (Week anniversary of the protests.)

my bold

Turbo, how many hours have you been watching Al Jazeera?(sorry)

 

[turbo]

my bold

Turbo, how many hours have you been watching Al Jazeera?(sorry)

Not long, but they were getting clean feeds out of Iraq when it was not the US military's best interests. Remember?