What is pressure accourding to Bernoulli's theorem?

AI Thread Summary
Pressure in Bernoulli's theorem is linked to the momentum transfer of gas molecules colliding with each other and container walls, which increases with more collisions and higher temperatures. The discussion highlights that pressure energy differs between gases and liquids, with gas pressure being thermal energy and liquid pressure resembling mechanical energy, akin to a compressed spring. The theorem primarily applies to incompressible fluids, but there are compressible versions for gases under certain conditions. Clarifications on the term "pressure energy" reveal it can refer to flow work or elastic deformation energy in fluids. Overall, understanding pressure energy is crucial for grasping Bernoulli's principle and its applications in fluid mechanics.
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Hello everyone,
In Bernoulli's theorem, I understand Potential energy (because of height) and Kinetic energy (because of velocity), but I don't understand pressure [energy]; Is it something like the vibration of molecules and bumping them into each other (in simple words).
Any help or simulation link would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Behrouz
 
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Yes, pressure in gases arises due to the momentum transfer of molecules bouncing off of each other and the walls of the container. Increase the number of collisions (by compressing the gas and pushing the molecules close together) and the pressure goes up. Increase the number and speed of the collisions (by increasing the temperature) and it also goes up.
 
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Behrouz said:
n Bernoulli's theorem, I understand Potential energy (because of height) and Kinetic energy (because of velocity), but I don't understand pressure [energy]; Is it something like the vibration of molecules and bumping them into each other (in simple words).
Let's say we have an evacuated vacuum chamber with valve that we can use to let air into the chamber.

Now we open the valve just a little bit. The kinetic energy of the air seems to come from the potential energy of the atmosphere. Because the atmosphere is descending. Right?

Okay now we turn the valve completely open. Now the kinetic energy of the air seems to come from the surrounding air. Because the pressure of the surrounding air decreases. Right?Addition: Same story as above but the chamber is now located at the bottom of the sea. There is one difference: air cools when its pressure decreases, but water doesn't.
 
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jartsa said:
Let's say we have an evacuated vacuum chamber with valve that we can use to let air into the chamber.

Now we open the valve just a little bit. The kinetic energy of the air seems to come from the potential energy of the atmosphere. Because the atmosphere is descending. Right?

Okay now we turn the valve completely open. Now the kinetic energy of the air seems to come from the surrounding air. Because the pressure of the surrounding air decreases. Right?Addition: Same story as above but the chamber is now located at the bottom of the sea. There is one difference: air cools when its pressure decreases, but water doesn't.
None of this makes much sense to me, particularly since we do not need gravitational potential energy to have pressure or to change pressure. Maybe you can explain in more detail.

@russ_watters provides a coherent explanation of what pressure actually is.
 
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jartsa said:
Let's say we have an evacuated vacuum chamber with valve that we can use to let air into the chamber.

Now we open the valve just a little bit. The kinetic energy of the air seems to come from the potential energy of the atmosphere. Because the atmosphere is descending. Right?

Okay now we turn the valve completely open. Now the kinetic energy of the air seems to come from the surrounding air. Because the pressure of the surrounding air decreases. Right?Addition: Same story as above but the chamber is now located at the bottom of the sea. There is one difference: air cools when its pressure decreases, but water doesn't.
russ_watters said:
Yes, pressure in gases arises due to the momentum transfer of molecules bouncing off of each other and the walls of the container. Increase the number of collisions (by compressing the gas and pushing the molecules close together) and the pressure goes up. Increase the number and speed of the collisions (by increasing the temperature) and it also goes up.
Thank you, that makes sense. But please kindly note that Bernoulli's theorem refers to in-compressible fluids.
 
Behrouz said:
But please kindly note that Bernoulli's theorem refers to in-compressible fluids.

Oh, I was not aware of that. So now I know that what we are interested about is:

pressure [energy] of some liquid

Liquids under pressure do not have much energy. They are like an extremely stiff spring that has been compressed by a large force.
 
Chestermiller said:
None of this makes much sense to me, particularly since we do not need gravitational potential energy to have pressure or to change pressure. Maybe you can explain in more detail.

Well we are interested about "pressure [energy]", as OP said.

Pressure [energy] of liquid is not quite the same as pressure [energy] of gas. Maybe that is why Bernoulli's principle only applies to incompressible flows.

Pressure [energy] of gas is thermal energy. Pressure [energy] of liquid is mechanical energy, like energy in a compressed spring.
 
Behrouz said:
Thank you, that makes sense. But please kindly note that Bernoulli's theorem refers to in-compressible fluids.
Yes, (though there is a compressible version), but your question wasn't really about Bernoulli's principle.
 
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russ_watters said:
Yes, (though there is a compressible version), but your question wasn't really about Bernoulli's principle.
Thanks again. The reason I asked about concept of pressure in Bernoulli is that in Bernoulli, each section has energy nature (i.e. Potential, Kinetic, and, Pressure energy). Potential and Kinetic energy is understandable to me, but not Pressure energy. With your explanation, I'd assume the pressure energy is coming from the movement of molecules and their bumping into each other.
Regarding the Compressible version Bernoulli, I'd appreciate if you could give me a link, when you get a chance, as I couldn't find any online.
Thanks for your help again. Truly appreciated.
 
  • #10
Behrouz said:
Thanks again. The reason I asked about concept of pressure in Bernoulli is that in Bernoulli, each section has energy nature (i.e. Potential, Kinetic, and, Pressure energy). Potential and Kinetic energy is understandable to me, but not Pressure energy. With your explanation, I'd assume the pressure energy is coming from the movement of molecules and their bumping into each other.
Regarding the Compressible version Bernoulli, I'd appreciate if you could give me a link, when you get a chance, as I couldn't find any online.
Thanks for your help again. Truly appreciated.
The Bernoulli equation is basically the fluid equivalent of the work-energy theorem. The pressure term represents the applied force part of the work-energy theorem which changes the kinetic energy and potential energy of the fluid.

For a reference to the compressible version of the Bernoulli equation, see Transport Phenomena by Bird, Stewart, and Lightfoot.
 
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  • #11
jartsa said:
Well we are interested about "pressure [energy]", as OP said.

Pressure [energy] of liquid is not quite the same as pressure [energy] of gas. Maybe that is why Bernoulli's principle only applies to incompressible flows.

Pressure [energy] of gas is thermal energy. Pressure [energy] of liquid is mechanical energy, like energy in a compressed spring.
During my long professional career, my main area of expertise was fluid mechanics. In all the 50 years since I received my PhD (doing a fluid mechanics thesis), I have never heard the term "pressure energy." Please precisely define this term, using something other than "the energy of pressure."
 
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  • #12
Chestermiller said:
In all the 50 years since I received my PhD (doing a fluid mechanics thesis), I have never heard the term "pressure energy."

The term "pressure energy" is sometimes used as a synonym for "flow work". But, as M.J. McPherson remarks in the book "Subsurface ventilation and enviromental engineering":

"As fluid continues to be inserted into the pipe to produce a continuous flow, then each individual plug must have this amount of work done on it. That energy is retained within the fluid stream and is known as the flow work. The appearance of pressure, P, within the expression for flow work has resulted in the term sometimes being labelled "pressure energy". This is very misleading as flow work is entirely different to the "elastic energy" stored when a closed vessel of fluid is compressed."
 
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  • #13
Chestermiller said:
During my long professional career, my main area of expertise was fluid mechanics. In all the 50 years since I received my PhD (doing a fluid mechanics thesis), I have never heard the term "pressure energy." Please precisely define this term, using something other than "the energy of pressure."
I don't necessarily like it, but here it is:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/pber.html
 
  • #14
Behrouz said:
Thank you, that makes sense. But please kindly note that Bernoulli's theorem refers to in-compressible fluids.
In an in-compressible fluid pressure can be understood as a Lagrange parameter to meet the boundary conditions of a fluid at a wall in Hamilton's principle of least action. See: A. Sommerfeld, Lectures on Theoretical Physics, vol. 2.
 
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  • #15
Chestermiller said:
During my long professional career, my main area of expertise was fluid mechanics. In all the 50 years since I received my PhD (doing a fluid mechanics thesis), I have never heard the term "pressure energy." Please precisely define this term, using something other than "the energy of pressure."

By pressure energy I mean the energy of elastic deformation of fluid parcels. And by that I mean that the 'deformed' parcels are squeezed into a smaller volume.

Like, if a hole appears suddenly on a submarine's wall, the energy of the water stream must come from somewhere, it does not come from potential energy because there is no net downwards flow of water, so the energy comes from the "pressure energy". (If we want a steady state situation, we can say that a pump is pumping the water out of the submarine)

If we decide to consider water to be incompressible, then I might say: "water has no pressure energy at all".

(If we want to use Bernoulli's theorem in the case of punctured submarine, then we assume that water is incompressible and the energy of the stream comes from the potential energy of water as the sea level starts to fall immediately when the hole on the submarine wall appears. Right?)
 
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  • #16
Well, pressure is (part of) the stress tensor, i.e., the space-space component of the energy-momentum tensor. Of course, as such pressure occurs in the energy-momentum balance equation, but it's not an energy (density).
 
  • #17
jartsa said:
By pressure energy I mean the energy of elastic deformation of fluid parcels. And by that I mean that the 'deformed' parcels are squeezed into a smaller volume.

Like, if a hole appears suddenly on a submarine's wall, the energy of the water stream must come from somewhere, it does not come from potential energy because there is no net downwards flow of water, so the energy comes from the "pressure energy". (If we want a steady state situation, we can say that a pump is pumping the water out of the submarine)

If we decide to consider water to be incompressible, then I might say: "water has no pressure energy at all".

(If we want to use Bernoulli's theorem in the case of punctured submarine, then we assume that water is incompressible and the energy of the stream comes from the potential energy of water as the sea level starts to fall immediately when the hole on the submarine wall appears. Right?)
But, in the context of gases I do not always mean by pressure energy the energy of elastic deformation of fluid parcels. In that context I mean by pressure energy the thermal energy of the gas, which may change without any deformation gas parcels, as happens in incompressible flow of gas.

@Behrouz: Bernoulli's theorem does actually apply to compressible fluids like gases, if the densities of gas parcels stay constant, which means that volumes of gas parcels stay constant, which is possible even if gas parcel's pressures change, if temperatures of gas parcels change too by a correct amount.
 
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  • #18
jartsa said:
But, in the context of gases I do not always mean by pressure energy the energy of elastic deformation of fluid parcels. In that context I mean by pressure energy the thermal energy of the gas, which may change without any deformation gas parcels, as happens in incompressible flow of gas.

@Behrouz: Bernoulli's theorem does actually apply to compressible fluids like gases, if the densities of gas parcels stay constant, which means that volumes of gas parcels stay constant, which is possible even if gas parcel's pressures change, if temperatures of gas parcels change too by a correct amount.
Thank you.
 
  • #19
Behrouz said:
Thanks again. The reason I asked about concept of pressure in Bernoulli is that in Bernoulli, each section has energy nature (i.e. Potential, Kinetic, and, Pressure energy). Potential )and Kinetic energy is understandable to me, but not Pressure energy. With your explanation, I'd assume the pressure energy is coming from the movement of molecules and their bumping into each other.
Regarding the Compressible version Bernoulli, I'd appreciate if you could give me a link, when you get a chance, as I couldn't find any online.
In preparation for understanding Bernoulli, you should start to distinguish between pressure from molecules going in random directions, with equal probability in each direction, versus molecules tending to go in a particular direction causing a flow velocity. And the velocity of any molecule can be separated into a component equal to the flow velocity (if any) and the remaining, random-direction velocity component.

PS. It always surprises me how high the average velocity of a molecule in the atmosphere is. "For typical air at room conditions, the average molecule is moving at about 500 m/s (close to 1000 miles per hour)." (from https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/SpeedofSound.html )
 
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  • #20
jartsa said:
\

(If we want to use Bernoulli's theorem in the case of punctured submarine, then we assume that water is incompressible and the energy of the stream comes from the potential energy of water as the sea level starts to fall immediately when the hole on the submarine wall appears. Right?)
This is totally and utterly incorrect, and borders on misinformation. Bernoulli's equation works fine for a punctured submarine even if gravitational terms are omitted from the equation. The cause of the pressure being high outside the submarine is incidental.
 
  • #21
Thank you all. I can this the beauty of nature in balancing the 'assets' of molecules at each moment; The summation of velocity, distance from the centre of the earth, and 'vibrations and bumping to other molecules around' should be constant. Fair enough :)
 
  • #22
I have become completely and utterly lost in this thread, which is really a testament to some of the strange explanations in here given that I do this for a living.

Let's start with some basic facts here:
  • Bernoulli's equation applies traditionally to incompressible flows, not just incompressible fluids. This is an important distinction, as it applies equally to liquids and gases provided that the velocities involved are small enough that the flow remains incompressible in a gas.
  • The terms in Bernoulli's equation can be written such that they are all in the units of pressure, which in turn, is equivalent (in terms of units) to an energy per volume.
There are three terms, typically. It seems everyone here has a pretty good grasp on two of them: the gravitational term (hydrostatic pressure) and the velocity term (dynamic pressure). The first of these is related to gravitational potential energy per volume, and the second is the bulk kinetic energy of the flowing fluid per volume.

The static pressure term seems to be the problematic one, yes? It is perhaps best illustrated if you go look into kinetic theory. If you do that, it should be reasonably clear that, if you want to think in terms of energy, the static (thermodynamic) pressure is essentially a measure of the kinetic energy per volume due to the random motions of the molecules that comprise the fluid. Note that this motion is random, so the fluid is not actually moving since the average of all the molecules' velocities is zero, but all those velocities squared, then averaged, is nonzero.
 
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  • #23
Bernoulli's equation is for the stationary flow of non-relativistic ideal fluids (no matter if compressible or incompressible). It's derivable from the continuity equation (local equation for mass conservation) and the Euler equation of motion. For stationary flows one has ##\partial_t =0## for all fields. Thus the continuity equation is
\begin{equation}
\label{1}
\vec{\nabla} \cdot (\rho \vec{v})=0
\end{equation}
and the equation of motion
\begin{equation}
\label{2}
\rho (\vec{v} \cdot \vec{\nabla}) \vec{v}=-\vec{\nabla} p +\rho \vec{g},
\end{equation}
where ##p## is the pressure and ##\vec{g}## the gravitational acceleration close to Earth.

Since for ideal fluids there's no heat exchange by assumption the entropy is conserved. From now on it's convenient to write everything concerning extensive thermodynamical quantities in terms of their specific values, i.e., the quantity per unit mass of the fluid. So we define ##s## and ##h## as the entropy and enthalpy per unit mass. Then the 1st law of thermodynamics reads
\begin{equation}
\label{3}
\mathrm{d} h=T \mathrm{d} s + \frac{1}{\rho} \mathrm{d} p=\frac{1}{\rho} \mathrm{d} p \; \Rightarrow \; \vec{\nabla} h = \frac{1}{\rho} \vec{\nabla} p.
\end{equation}
The final step uses the fact that the ideal-fluid flow is adiabatic, i.e., ##\mathrm{d} s=0##.

Now the trick is to rewrite the left-hand side of (\ref{2}) with help of the identity
\begin{equation}
\label{4}
\frac{1}{2} \nabla \vec{v}^2=\frac{1}{2} \vec{\nabla} v^2 = \vec{v} \times (\nabla \times \vec{v}) + (\vec{v} \cdot \vec{\nabla}) \vec{v},
\end{equation}
After some algebra using this equation in (\ref{2}) one gets using (\ref{4})
$$\vec{v} \times (\vec{\nabla} \times \vec{v})=\vec{\nabla} \left (h + \frac{v^2}{2} +g z\right).$$
Here we have chosen the coordinate system such that ##\vec{g}=-g \vec{e}_z##. This implies that
\begin{equation}
\label{5}
\vec{v} \cdot \vec{\nabla} \left (\frac{v^2}{2} +h + g z \right )=0.
\end{equation}
This tells you that the expression
$$h+\frac{v^2}{2}+g z=\text{const along stream lines},$$
and this is Bernoulli's equation for the compressible fluid.

For the incompressible fluid, one can use (\ref{3}) again in (5) and write ##\nabla h=(\nabla p)/\rho=\nabla (p/\rho)## since then by definition ##\rho=\text{const}##, and the Bernoulli equation takes the usual form for an incompressible fluid, i.e.,
$$\frac{p}{\rho} + \frac{v^2}{2} + g z=\text{const along stream lines}.$$
 
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  • #24
vanhees71 said:
Bernoulli's equation is for the stationary flow of non-relativistic ideal fluids (no matter if compressible or incompressible). It's derivable from the continuity equation (local equation for mass conservation) and the Euler equation of motion. For stationary flows one has ##\partial_t =0## for all fields. Thus the continuity equation is
\begin{equation}
\label{1}
\vec{\nabla} \cdot (\rho \vec{v})=0
\end{equation}
and the equation of motion
\begin{equation}
\label{2}
\rho (\vec{v} \cdot \vec{\nabla}) \vec{v}=-\vec{\nabla} p +\rho \vec{g},
\end{equation}
where ##p## is the pressure and ##\vec{g}## the gravitational acceleration close to Earth.

Since for ideal fluids there's no heat exchange by assumption the entropy is conserved. From now on it's convenient to write everything concerning extensive thermodynamical quantities in terms of their specific values, i.e., the quantity per unit mass of the fluid. So we define ##s## and ##h## as the entropy and enthalpy per unit mass. Then the 1st law of thermodynamics reads
\begin{equation}
\label{3}
\mathrm{d} w=T \mathrm{d} s + \frac{1}{\rho} \mathrm{d} p=\frac{1}{\rho} \mathrm{d} p \; \Rightarrow \; \vec{\nabla} h = \frac{1}{\rho} \vec{\nabla} p.
\end{equation}
The final step uses the fact that the ideal-fluid flow is adiabatic, i.e., ##\mathrm{d} s=0##.

Now the trick is to rewrite the left-hand side of (\ref{2}) with help of the identity
\begin{equation}
\label{4}
\frac{1}{2} \nabla \vec{v}^2=\frac{1}{2} \vec{\nabla} v^2 = \vec{v} \times (\nabla \times \vec{v}) + (\vec{v} \cdot \vec{\nabla}) \vec{v},
\end{equation}
After some algebra using this equation in (\ref{2}) one gets using (\ref{4})
$$\vec{v} \times (\vec{\nabla} \times \vec{v})=\vec{\nabla} \left (h + \frac{v^2}{2} +g z\right).$$
Here we have chosen the coordinate system such that ##\vec{g}=-g \vec{e}_z##. This implies that
\begin{equation}
\label{5}
\vec{v} \cdot \vec{\nabla} \left (\frac{v^2}{2} +h + g z \right )=0.
\end{equation}
This tells you that the expression
$$h+\frac{v^2}{2}+g z=\text{const along stream lines},$$
and this is Bernoulli's equation for the compressible fluid.

For the incompressible fluid, one can use (\ref{3}) again in (5) and write ##\nabla h=(\nabla p)/\rho=\nabla (p/\rho)## since then by definition ##\rho=\text{const}##, and the Bernoulli equation takes the usual form for an incompressible fluid, i.e.,
$$\frac{p}{\rho} + \frac{v^2}{2} + g z=\text{const along stream lines}.$$
My understanding is that the flow being adiabatic is not a requirement for the Bernoulli equation to apply. That certainly isn't a feature of the Euler equation or the continuity equation.
 
  • #25
Of course it is. Euler's equation describes ideal fluids, i.e., no shear or bulk viscosity and no heat transfer. This implies the adiabacity. The ideal-fluid equations of motion follow from kinetic theory under the assumption of 0 mean-free path, i.e., the fluid is in local thermal equilibrium at any time. This implies that the collision term in the Boltzmann equation vanishes and this is the case if and only if the system is in local thermal equilibrium and then and only then the entropy stays constant.

A very clear treatment of fluid dynamics as well as of kinetic theory can be found in Landau and Lifshitz vol. VI and X respectively.
 
  • #26
Since when is an ideal fluid assumed to be adiabatic (I.e., have zero thermal conductivity)? For purposes of mechanical energy balance (I.e., Bernoulli equation), such an assumption is totally unnecessary.
 
  • #27
Ideal fluids were always considered to flow adiabatically. It's the definition of an ideal fluid. As I said, it's all very clearly explained in Landau&Lifshitz' textbooks.
 
  • #28
vanhees71 said:
Ideal fluids were always considered to flow adiabatically. It's the definition of an ideal fluid. As I said, it's all very clearly explained in Landau&Lifshitz' textbooks.
The fluid mechanics textbooks we engineers us have no such defonition.
 
  • #29
boneh3ad said:
The static pressure term seems to be the problematic one, yes? It is perhaps best illustrated if you go look into kinetic theory. If you do that, it should be reasonably clear that, if you want to think in terms of energy, the static (thermodynamic) pressure is essentially a measure of the kinetic energy per volume due to the random motions of the molecules that comprise the fluid. Note that this motion is random, so the fluid is not actually moving since the average of all the molecules' velocities is zero, but all those velocities squared, then averaged, is nonzero.
Well I can agree with that, because of the following scenario:

Rigid container A contains air at room temperature and 100 atm's pressure. We open a valve on the container wall. Almost all air comes out at high speed. The valve gets cold. Randomly moving air molecules used their kinetic energy to do work. But, then there is this scenario:

Rigid container B contains water at room temperature and 100 atm's pressure. We open a valve on the container wall. Only a small fraction of the water comes out at high speed. The valve does not get cold, even if the container is so huge that the the amount of water coming out is large.
 
  • #30
jartsa said:
Well I can agree with that, because of the following scenario:

Rigid container A contains air at room temperature and 100 atm's pressure. We open a valve on the container wall. Almost all air comes out at high speed. The valve gets cold. Randomly moving air molecules used their kinetic energy to do work.But, then there is this scenario:

Rigid container B contains water at room temperature and 100 atm's pressure. We open a valve on the container wall. Only a small fraction of the water comes out at high speed. The valve does not get cold, even if the container is so huge that the the amount of water coming out is large.
So, what is the point of this? Can you identify the mechanistic reason why the valve gets cold when gas is coming out?
 
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  • #31
Chestermiller said:
The fluid mechanics textbooks we engineers us have no such defonition.
Interesting. Maybe that's for books on hydrodynamics of liquids (water), where you can assume incompressibility, but I'm sure that you need an equation of state and the fact that ideal fluid-flow is adiabatic to close the equations.

In relativistic fluid dynamics the usual derivation is via the energy-momentum-stress tensor for ideal fluid dynamics and energy-momentum conservation. If I think about it, that's an approach which is even easier to understand than the usual way used in non-relativistic fluid-dynamics textbooks, how and where the enthalpy and internal energy enter the equations. The ideal-fluid ems tensor is easily derived. Consider a fluid cell. In the local rest frame of this cell you have
$$\bar{T}^{\mu \nu}=\mathrm{diag}(\epsilon,P,P,P),$$
where ##\epsilon## is the internal-energy density and ##P## the pressure of the gas. For an arbitrary frame you get the tensor components by introducing the fluid-four-velocity vector (I use units with ##c=1## to save some work), which in the local rest frame is
$$\bar{u}^{\mu}=(1,0,0,0).$$
In this way we get
$$T^{\mu \nu} = (\epsilon+P) u^{\mu} u^{\nu}-P \eta^{\mu \nu}$$
with the Minkowski pseduo-metric tensor ##\eta^{\mu \nu}=\mathrm{diag}(1,-1,-1,-1)##. Note that ##\epsilon## and ##P## are still defined as their values in the local rest frame. This has the advantage that they are all Lorentz scalar fields.

If you now apply energy-momentum conservation (not considering external forces) you get the energy-balance and the relativistic version of the ideal-fluid Euler equation
$$\partial_{\mu} T^{\mu \nu}=0.$$
Now we have to introduce some conserved particle-number like quantity. In relativistic plasma physics one usually uses the electric charge in relativistic heavy-ion collisions the net-baryon number (i.e., the quantity (number of baryons) minus (number of antibaryons), which is conserved under the strong interaction). Then we have the continuity equation
$$\partial_{\mu} (n u^{\mathrm{\mu}})=0,$$
where ##n## is the electric-charge or net-baryon-number density in the local restframe of the fluid cell. Note that we here tacitly assume that the net-charge flow and the energy-momentum flow are both determined by the same four-velocity ##u^{\mu}##. That's also only true for ideal fluids. For non-ideal (viscous) fluids you have to distinguish these four-velocities, and it's a matter of the physical situation which you define as the fluid four-velocity. If you use the energy-momentum flow velocity it's called the Landau framework if you choose a conserved-charge flow it's the Eckart framework. But here let's stick to the ideal fluid, where all the flow velocities are the same.

Then you can write the thermodynamic identities which are for a fixed quantity of substance for the enthalpy (because that's the quantity ##h=\epsilon+p## which occurs in the ideal-fluid ems-tensor above)
$$\mathrm{d}(h/n)=T \mathrm{d}(s/n) + \frac{1}{n} \mathrm{d} P.$$
Here ##s## is the entropy density (as measured in the local restframe of the fluid, i.e., a Lorentz scalar field again) and ##T## the temperature (also measured in the local fluid restframe and thus a scalar).

Writing out the equation for energy-momentum conservation,
$$\partial_{\mu} T^{\mu \nu}= u_{\nu} \partial_{\mu}(h u^{\mu}) + h u^{\mu} \partial_{\mu} u^{\nu} + \partial^{\nu} P=0.$$
Multiplying with ##u^{\mu}## (with the Einstein summation convention effective) we find
$$\partial_{\mu}(h u^{\mu})-u^{\mu} \partial_{\mu} P=0,$$
where we have used ##u_{\nu} u^{\nu}=1##, i.e., ##u_{\nu} \partial_{\mu} u^{\nu}=0##.

Using in the above equation ##h=n (h/n)## and also the continuity equation ##\partial_{\mu} (n u^{\mu})=0## we get
$$u^{\mu} \left (\partial_{\mu}(h/n)-\frac{1}{n} \partial_{\mu}P \right)=0.$$
Using the above thermodynamic relation, we can write this equation as
$$u^{\mu} \partial_{\mu} (s/n)=0,$$
i.e., indeed the entropy per charge is conserved along the stream-worldlines, and this means the fluid flow is adiabatic.
 
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  • #32
vanhees71 said:
Interesting. Maybe that's for books on hydrodynamics of liquids (water), where you can assume incompressibility, but I'm sure that you need an equation of state and the fact that ideal fluid-flow is adiabatic to close the equations.
Are you saying that I can't solve the flow and heat transfer equations for an ideal inviscid gas being heated or cooled (not adiabatic) in a tube?
 
  • #33
As soon as you have transport phenomena, it's no more an ideal fluid. Of course, you can solve the above mentioned problems, but it's no longer ideal fluid dynamics. You have to introduce new quantities, the transfport coefficients. The usual treatment is to start from kinetic theory and to a systematic moment expansion. In leading order (first order in gradients) you get the shear and buld viscosities related to momentum transport and heat conductivity etc.
 
  • #34
vanhees71 said:
As soon as you have transport phenomena, it's no more an ideal fluid. Of course, you can solve the above mentioned problems, but it's no longer ideal fluid dynamics. You have to introduce new quantities, the transfport coefficients. The usual treatment is to start from kinetic theory and to a systematic moment expansion. In leading order (first order in gradients) you get the shear and buld viscosities related to momentum transport and heat conductivity etc.
So, if I have steady state flow and heat transfer to a gas flowing through a tube (where the wall temperature is different from the inlet temperature), it would be a no-no to treat it as an ideal gas with zero viscosity, but with non-zero thermal conductivity because it would (a) be poorly defined mathematically, be a bad approximation, or (c) not be conforming to the precise definition of what physicists call an "ideal fluid."
 
  • #35
This is an interesting discussion for sure. Most sources I have available to me would say that an ideal fluid is one that is inviscid and incompressible and they make no mention of a requirement of adiabaticity. However, I also know that, from Crocco's theorem in a steady flow,
T\nabla s = \nabla h_0 - \vec{v}\times\vec{\zeta},
a diabatic flow should have a total enthalpy gradient, which introduces vorticity, which in turn means the flow is no longer irrotational. So, if you consider irrotationality to be an important consideration (i.e., do you feel that an ideal flow should admit a potential function?), then it would seemingly need to be adiabatic.

Bernoulli's equation also technically requires the flow to be adiabatic. If you look at the energy equation for a steady, incompressible flow with zero heat conduction or generation and zero shaft work, then the energy entering/leaving a control volume through the control surfaces is
0 = \oint\limits_{CS}\rho\left(e+\dfrac{U^2}{2} + \dfrac{p}{\rho} + gz\right)\vec{U}\cdot\hat{n}\;dA.
If you treat the CV as a streamtube so that you have a single inlet and single exit, you can use the energy equation in this way to derive Bernoulli's equation. You simply need a way to eliminate changes in internal energy, and in this case, this implies the flow must be incompressible and adiabatic. I obviously skipped a lot of steps there, but hopefully it is at least emblematic of the problems applying Bernoulli's equation to a flow with heat transfer.

Oddly enough, I have a PF Insight I was working on that would cover this topic and I left it around 75% finished and got too busy with work to finish it yet.
 
  • #36
boneh3ad said:
This is an interesting discussion for sure. Most sources I have available to me would say that an ideal fluid is one that is inviscid and incompressible and they make no mention of a requirement of adiabaticity. However, I also know that, from Crocco's theorem in a steady flow,
T\nabla s = \nabla h_0 - \vec{v}\times\vec{\zeta},
a diabatic flow should have a total enthalpy gradient, which introduces vorticity, which in turn means the flow is no longer irrotational. So, if you consider irrotationality to be an important consideration (i.e., do you feel that an ideal flow should admit a potential function?), then it would seemingly need to be adiabatic.

Bernoulli's equation also technically requires the flow to be adiabatic. If you look at the energy equation for a steady, incompressible flow with zero heat conduction or generation and zero shaft work, then the energy entering/leaving a control volume through the control surfaces is
0 = \oint\limits_{CS}\rho\left(e+\dfrac{U^2}{2} + \dfrac{p}{\rho} + gz\right)\vec{U}\cdot\hat{n}\;dA.
If you treat the CV as a streamtube so that you have a single inlet and single exit, you can use the energy equation in this way to derive Bernoulli's equation. You simply need a way to eliminate changes in internal energy, and in this case, this implies the flow must be incompressible and adiabatic. I obviously skipped a lot of steps there, but hopefully it is at least emblematic of the problems applying Bernoulli's equation to a flow with heat transfer.

Oddly enough, I have a PF Insight I was working on that would cover this topic and I left it around 75% finished and got too busy with work to finish it yet.
Irrespective of whether the flow is adiabatic, if I take the dot product of the velocity vector with the incompressible steady state Euler equation, I obtain:
$$\mathbf{v}\centerdot \nabla \left[\rho \frac{v^2}{2}+p+\rho g z\right]=0$$This means that, along all streamlines,
$$\left[\rho \frac{v^2}{2}+p+\rho g z\right]=const$$

For a compressible fluid, the corresponding relationship is:
$$\mathbf{v}\centerdot \nabla \left[\frac{1}{2}v^2+gz\right]+\frac{1}{\rho}\mathbf{v}\centerdot \nabla p=0$$So, along a streamline, $$d\left[\frac{1}{2}v^2+gz\right]+\frac{1}{\rho}dp=0$$This is the same relationship given by Bird, Stewart, and Lightfoot in their book Transport Phenomena, with no restriction with regard to the flow being adiabatic.
 
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  • #37
FactChecker said:
PS. It always surprises me how high the average velocity of a molecule in the atmosphere is. "For typical air at room conditions, the average molecule is moving at about 500 m/s (close to 1000 miles per hour)." (from https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/SpeedofSound.html )

FactChecker, you are confusing the speed of a molecule along its true path with the speed with which it moves toward a pressure sensor. The latter is a single axial speed measured normal to and toward the sensor. Strangely enough, it just happens to be exactly half of the true path speed.

For an atmospheric pressure of 105 pascals, a vapor pressure of 103 pascals, a system temperature of 25°C, no wind, and no changes of phase: there will be some 2.89 x 1027 molecular impacts per square meter of sensing surface per second and a mean impulse transferred per impact of 3.52 x 10-23 Newtons. The product of the flux and the impulse equals the pressure. The mean axial speed with which the molecules approach the sensor is 234 meters per second, the mean speed with which they impact the surface is 367 meters per second, the mean speed of sound in that humid air is 347 meters per second.

The reason why the speed of impact is so much greater than the speed of passage is that the faster a molecule travels, the higher the probability of that molecule striking a surface, population numbers being the same.
 
  • #38
klimatos said:
FactChecker, you are confusing the speed of a molecule along its true path with the speed with which it moves toward a pressure sensor.
You are reading more into my postscript than I wrote. It's only a statement about the average velocity, nothing more. I think the average speed is startling. I didn't mean to relate it to other facts.
 
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  • #39
Chestermiller said:
So, what is the point of this? Can you identify the mechanistic reason why the valve gets cold when gas is coming out?

It's meant to be a demonstration about how liquid and gas are different, from the energy perspective.

I will not tell the mechanical reason, I might get it wrong. Instead I say that the gas container with the open valve is a rocket, and a rocket is a heat engine, and a heat engine converts thermal energy to mechanical energy.
 
  • #40
Chestermiller said:
So, if I have steady state flow and heat transfer to a gas flowing through a tube (where the wall temperature is different from the inlet temperature), it would be a no-no to treat it as an ideal gas with zero viscosity, but with non-zero thermal conductivity because it would (a) be poorly defined mathematically, be a bad approximation, or (c) not be conforming to the precise definition of what physicists call an "ideal fluid."
I think it's (c). I don't know, whether there is a contradiction in neglecting viscosity but include thermal conductivity.
 
  • #41
Chestermiller said:
Irrespective of whether the flow is adiabatic, if I take the dot product of the velocity vector with the incompressible steady state Euler equation, I obtain:
$$\mathbf{v}\centerdot \nabla \left[\rho \frac{v^2}{2}+p+\rho g z\right]=0$$This means that, along all streamlines,
$$\left[\rho \frac{v^2}{2}+p+\rho g z\right]=const$$

For a compressible fluid, the corresponding relationship is:
$$\mathbf{v}\centerdot \nabla \left[\frac{1}{2}v^2+gz\right]+\frac{1}{\rho}\mathbf{v}\centerdot \nabla p=0$$So, along a streamline, $$d\left[\frac{1}{2}v^2+gz\right]+\frac{1}{\rho}dp=0$$This is the same relationship given by Bird, Stewart, and Lightfoot in their book Transport Phenomena, with no restriction with regard to the flow being adiabatic.
Of course this is a correct equation, and it doesn't contradict what I wrote in #23. I've never heard that the flow of ideal fluids can be non-adiabatic. The very definition of ideal fluids (i.e., no friction/viscosity and no heat conduction) makes their flow adiabatic. In terms of kinetic theory it's the limit of 0 mean-free path and 0 relaxation time, i.e., the fluid is always in local thermal equilibrium and thus no entropy is produced.

Perhaps there are different definitions of what you call an "ideal fluid" in engineering than in physics, although it's hard to believe that. Maybe you can give me your definition of an ideal fluid (i.e., which complete set of equations do you consider to describe an ideal fluid). Maybe then one can derive that the flow is adiabatic or one can see which additional assumptions physicists maybe make to derive that the flow is adiabatic.
 
  • #42
vanhees71 said:
Of course this is a correct equation, and it doesn't contradict what I wrote in #23. I've never heard that the flow of ideal fluids can be non-adiabatic. The very definition of ideal fluids (i.e., no friction/viscosity and no heat conduction) makes their flow adiabatic. In terms of kinetic theory it's the limit of 0 mean-free path and 0 relaxation time, i.e., the fluid is always in local thermal equilibrium and thus no entropy is produced.

Perhaps there are different definitions of what you call an "ideal fluid" in engineering than in physics, although it's hard to believe that. Maybe you can give me your definition of an ideal fluid (i.e., which complete set of equations do you consider to describe an ideal fluid). Maybe then one can derive that the flow is adiabatic or one can see which additional assumptions physicists maybe make to derive that the flow is adiabatic.
I remember them covering inviscid fluids, plug flow, and ideal gases, but never "ideal fluids." I just assumed that an ideal fluid was a term Physicists use for inviscid fluids. In the case of ideal gases, our definition had heat capacities that were functions of temperature, which is the limit of real gas behavior at low pressures.

There were other differences. In thermodynamics, Physicists call closed systems what we engineers refer to as isolated systems; in engineering, a closed system is one that exchanges no mass with its surroundings, but can exchange heat and work.

Welcome to the Tower of Babel.
 
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  • #43
Ok, I see. But again, I think that the term "ideal fluid" (where fluid subsumes liquids, which are approximately incompressible and gases, which are not) implies that the flow is considered adiabatic.

An ideal gas is by definition an ideal fluid, i.e., it is considered to be instantaneously in local thermal equilibrium, i.e., its phase-space distribution function is always of the form (neglecting quantum statistics)
$$f(t,\vec{r},\vec{p}=\exp[-[((\vec{p}-m \vec{v}(t,\vec{r})^2/(2m)-\mu(t,\vec{r}))]/(T(t,\vec{r}))].$$
Plugging this into the Boltzmann equation leads to the vanishing of the collision term, and this also holds for the entropy-balance equation, which implies that entropy is conserved.

It is further clear that an ideal fluid is inviscid (no friction, i.e., no dissipation of momentum) and not heat conducting (no dissipation of energy).

To be sure that there's not a difference in the usual meaning of "ideal fluid" between physicists and engineers, I'd need to know what the engineers take as the full set of equations to define what an "ideal fluid" is. Of course, it's always an approximation with a limited range of applicability since real fluids (liquids or gases) are never fully ideal, but often one can approximate their flow as ideal.
 
  • #44
vanhees71 said:
Ok, I see. But again, I think that the term "ideal fluid" (where fluid subsumes liquids, which are approximately incompressible and gases, which are not) implies that the flow is considered adiabatic.

An ideal gas is by definition an ideal fluid,
I find this very puzzling. Are you saying that any process experienced by an ideal gas must be considered adiabatic? Maybe we have an issue with the term "adiabatic." To me, a process is adiabatic if there is no heat transfer across the interface between the gas and its surroundings during the process. Does the term adiabatic somehow mean something different to a Physicist.

In thermodynamics, when we have a closed system with negligible changes in macroscopic kinetic energy and gravitational potential energy, we express the first law of thermodynamics as $$\Delta U=Q-W$$where Q is the heat transferred across the interface between the system its surroundings during the process, and W is the work done at the interface. Are you saying that, if the system consists of an ideal gas, irrespective of the actual process, Q must always be taken as zero? Is there no way of transferring heat to an ideal gas?
 
  • #45
A fluid flow is adiabatic when the entropy is conserved (along streamlines). An ideal flow is automatically adiabatic in this sense by assumption, because there's no friction and no heat transfer (by assumption). I'm very surprised that this is not well-known in the engineering community. In fact, I've listened to a fluid dynamics lecture by an engineer, and I just could dig out the manuscript of this lecture. There the adiabaticity of ideal-fluid flows is also clearly stated (I have to still figure out from which assumptions it's derived since this is spread over several chapters).
 
  • #46
Yes, I think this is all just different definitions of the term "ideal". If we stop using the word "ideal" and instead just list the assumptions, doesn't that clear it up?

Does everyone agree that the standard form of Bernoulli's equation with a constant sum of static, dynamic and gravitational potential energy/pressure terms assumes the system is adiabatic?

And does everyone agree that you can take that equation and simply add externally applied work or heat transfer to it to use it in real world situations? I wouldn't call it "the standard form of Bernoulli's equation" anymore, but using it that way is a totally normal thing, right?

For an HVAC system, for example, you essentially have two infinite fluid reservoirs (with zero airflow), work in from a fan to provide airflow energy, and then all of that energy lost as heat:

Win = P + 1/2 ρ V2 = Hout

That describes the fan work, the flow just after the fan, and the heat rejected into the room. If it is significant for the needs of the situation, you can even calculate how the volumetric airflow rate changes with temperature, as you heat the air (and it sometimes is).
 
  • #47
I'm not sure that the equation with ##W_{\text{in}}## should say, but everything else for me is completely standard fluid dynamics.
 
  • #48
russ_watters said:
Yes, I think this is all just different definitions of the term "ideal". If we stop using the word "ideal" and instead just list the assumptions, doesn't that clear it up?

Does everyone agree that the standard form of Bernoulli's equation with a constant sum of static, dynamic and gravitational potential energy/pressure terms assumes the system is adiabatic?
I don't. To me, adiabatic means that no heat is transferred between the system and its surroundings. The Bernoulli equation is just the dot product of the velocity vector with the Euler (inviscid fluid) equation. So it assumes zero viscosity for the fluid, but makes no assumptions regarding heat transfer. So it will apply irrespective of the heat transfer (provided the viscosity is negligible).
And does everyone agree that you can take that equation and simply add externally applied work or heat transfer to it to use it in real world situations? I wouldn't call it "the standard form of Bernoulli's equation" anymore, but using it that way is a totally normal thing, right?
The reason that you can simply add externally applied heat transfer is that there is no restriction on the heat transfer to begin with. So it would still be the standard form of the Bernoulli equation. I agree with the part about work, however.
For an HVAC system, for example, you essentially have two infinite fluid reservoirs (with zero airflow), work in from a fan to provide airflow energy, and then all of that energy lost as heat:

Win = P + 1/2 ρ V2 = Hout

That describes the fan work, the flow just after the fan, and the heat rejected into the room. If it is significant for the needs of the situation, you can even calculate how the volumetric airflow rate changes with temperature, as you heat the air (and it sometimes is).
I'm not sure I fully understand this, but if Hout represents the change in enthalpy of the airflow, then I agree about the part involving Win and Hout (assuming the duct is adiabatic). The middle expression is a little harder to see, although I think it has something to do with the pressure and the kinetic energy of the flow inside the duct.
 
  • #49
vanhees71 said:
I'm not sure that the equation with ##W_{\text{in}}## should say, but everything else for me is completely standard fluid dynamics.
...er, actually I didnt put everything into the same units, so it's unfinished the way I wrote it. Regardless;

The work in is the work done by the fan. The middle expression describes the airflow in the duct just after the fan. The third is heat output since all of the airflow energy winds up as heat.

Depending on exactly what information I have and want to find, I'll use certain parts of it. For example, I may be given the airflow and static pressure after the fan and use it to find the heat dissipated.
 
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  • #50
For the record, Munson defines an ideal fluid as inviscid and incompressible. So does Nakayama. Durst only requires an ideal fluid to be inviscid.

I don't know that it is right to say the Euler equation requires the fluid to be adiabatic, as it is simply a momentum balance for a flowing inviscid fluid. Why would you consider heat transfer when doing a momentum balance? Of course a complete description of a general flow will necessarily account for any heat transfer, so that the flow parameters will be coupled through continuity, momentum and energy equations (and an entropy equation of course). In undergraduate mechanical engineering fluids courses, we usually use some form of the three in the image below (from White) as the "complete description" of flows, with further simplifications starting from these.

4Emy88F.png


With an inviscid flow the last term of the momentum balance (and also the energy balance) is zero, yielding Euler's equation. (The differential of the velocity is the total derivative.)
 

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