What is the difference between static friction and rolling resistance?

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    Motor Torque
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the differences between static friction and rolling resistance in the context of vehicle design, particularly for a vehicle climbing a slope. Participants explore the implications of these forces on torque calculations and analyze the relevance of different terms in the equations governing motion.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on the torque required for a vehicle's wheel, questioning the inclusion of the term mg*sin(theta)*R in the torque analysis.
  • Another participant suggests that in a scenario with infinite friction, only the mg*sin(theta)*R term would be relevant, indicating a specific case of maximum torque without slipping.
  • There is a challenge regarding the appearance of the mg*sin(theta)*R term when considering momentum about the center of mass, with some participants expressing confusion over its derivation.
  • One participant points out that the term Fr in the original analysis corresponds to rolling resistance, which is a dynamic force and not applicable in a static analysis.
  • Another participant agrees that Fr should be referred to as 'traction' force rather than 'friction' force, emphasizing the distinction between static friction and rolling resistance.
  • A participant references an equation that includes both static friction and rolling resistance, questioning why their analysis does not yield the same result as presented in other sources.
  • One participant clarifies that static friction prevents slipping and is not exceeded in calculations, while rolling resistance pertains to energy loss due to tire deformation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relevance of static friction versus rolling resistance in the analysis, with no consensus reached on the correct approach to torque calculations or the definitions of the forces involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for clarity on definitions and the context of static versus dynamic analyses, indicating potential limitations in the assumptions made regarding the forces at play.

googly_eyes
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Hi, it's probably a frequent question, but I can't seem to wrap my hear around. I'm trying to understand how I reach that value, not just how to get the value.
I'm designing a vehicle with 4 wheels. It'll climb a surface with a slope theta (in degrees).
This is the FBD that I've come up with of a wheel. Following my analysis, the torque M that the motor needs to provide is simply Fr*R, where Fr is the friction force.
gaa.png

However, I've seen docs on the internet (page 35/60) that instead considers that the required torque includes an extra force (let's forget about the acceleration and wind force), which is mg*sin(theta)*R. This completely changes the torque analysis, and I don't know why it's like that (not explanation/analysis is given, just that). And I've seen the same equation on other places, including this extra member to the equation force. But alas, I'm clueless as to why it's like that. If you could please enlighten me, an explanation/FBD, whatever fits you, to explain this to me.
Many thanks
 
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If you had a rack railway which can't slip at all (infinite friction?) then you would only have the mg*sin(theta)*R term.
The friction force term corresponds to the maximum torque without slipping.
 
Keith_McClary said:
If you had a rack railway which can't slip at all (infinite friction?) then you would only have the mg*sin(theta)*R term.
I'm sorry, I fail to see how that term appears if you take momentum with respect to the center of mass.
Keith_McClary said:
The friction force term corresponds to the maximum torque without slipping.
The worst case scenario, correct?
 
Your 'Fr*R' and 'mg*sin(theta)*R ' are the same (as you define Fr). The paper that you cited defines Fr as 'rolling resistance' - that's a dynamic force - not relevant in a static analysis.

I would call your Fr the 'traction' (not 'friction') force.
 
Dullard said:
Your 'Fr*R' and 'mg*sin(theta)*R ' are the same (as you define Fr). The paper that you cited defines Fr as 'rolling resistance' - that's a dynamic force - not relevant in a static analysis.

I would call your Fr the 'traction' (not 'friction') force.

Now that you mention it, that's true. But for example, in this page make an analysis and turns out that M=mg*(sinθ+cosθ*μr)*R - the maximum static friction is added. This analysis only considers forces, and then derives the motor torque. Shouldn't I reach the same result?

And you can also find this similar equation in this online calculator. They consider other factors such as number of wheels (n1) and the weight of each wheel (md1), but it's basically the total mass of the system. The other term doesn't matter because it's all zero, so it doesn't affect.
1587745773560.png
 
You're confusing static friction and rolling resistance. Static friction is what keeps the tire from slipping. As long as it is not exceeded, it doesn't matter to your calculations. 'Rolling friction' is (mostly) the effort wasted into changing the shape of the tire as it rolls. Rolling friction is not relevant to a static analysis (which is what you appear to be attempting).
 
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