Which college is the best for physics research in general?

[schmittno]

Hello, my goal is eventually to go to grad school for physics. I am not yet sure what sub-field I find most interesting because all of them are very interesting to me. Of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Stony Brook University, and University of Rochester, what college will provide me with plentiful research opportunities in a variety of sub-fields? Thank you for any feedback you may have (please disregard cost for the sake of your recommendations).

 

[hutchphd]

Why (and how) do you restrict yourself to these three (good) schools? I learned a lot at Cornell as an undergrad (long ago !!) and would recommend it. There are many other good choices. What are your constraints?

 

[CrysPhys]

Hello, my goal is eventually to go to grad school for physics. I am not yet sure what sub-field I find most interesting because all of them are very interesting to me. Of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Stony Brook University, and University of Rochester, what college will provide me with plentiful research opportunities in a variety of sub-fields? Thank you for any feedback you may have (please disregard cost for the sake of your recommendations).

Are you a graduating high school senior? Are these the top schools on your list that have accepted you?

 

[CrysPhys]

Of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Stony Brook University, and University of Rochester, what college will provide me with plentiful research opportunities in a variety of sub-fields?

There are two separate issues:

(1) What research areas are the faculty in each university engaged in?

(2) What opportunities does each university provide for undergraduates to participate in research? Not all universities do. But MIT, e.g., has UROP (Undergraduate Research Opportunities Program), which funds and strongly encourages undergrad research.

So you need to find out the answers to both questions for the schools on your list. The first is easy, look up what research is being done at each school. The second may require a bit more digging (contact the physics depts, e.g.).

 

[schmittno]

Why (and how) do you restrict yourself to these three (good) schools? I learned a lot at Cornell as an undergrad (long ago !!) and would recommend it. There are many other good choices. What are your constraints?

I have applied to Cornell, but haven't received a decision yet. I'd say that I have a decent shot of getting in (1540 SAT, 8 AP, 3 Sports, President of NHS, 3rd in my class), but even if I do the cost may be too much for my family (and I won't receive any financial aid).

 

[schmittno]

Are you a graduating high school senior? Are these the top schools on your list that have accepted you?

Yes to both, but I am waiting on Cornell

 

[marcusl]

Why don’t you wait until you hear back from? You may be able to choose from them all, but your options might be limited to a subset instead.

 

[CrysPhys]

Why don’t you wait until you hear back from? You may be able to choose from them all, but your options might be limited to a subset instead.

Yes. But while waiting, the OP can still look up what research is being done at all the candidate schools (including Cornell). And he can contact the physics depts of the schools he's been admitted to to ask about undergrad research opportunities. For Cornell, it would be better to wait for an acceptance before initiating a contact with the physics dept.

 

[CrysPhys]

@schmittno . I know this is outside the scope of your question. But if you haven't already done so, try to visit the campuses you will be considering. It's great that physics research is a high priority for you, but remember that you will be spending the next 4 yrs of your life at school. Each campus, and surrounding locale, has its own peculiar vibes. So you should also take that into account when making a final decision.

 

[Muu9]

Hello, my goal is eventually to go to grad school for physics. I am not yet sure what sub-field I find most interesting because all of them are very interesting to me. Of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Stony Brook University, and University of Rochester, what college will provide me with plentiful research opportunities in a variety of sub-fields? Thank you for any feedback you may have (please disregard cost for the sake of your recommendations).

I would suggest RPI: https://physics.rpi.edu/programs/accelerated-bs-phd-program

RPI is clearly an excellent place for physics research, as students in these programs choose their PhD research area sophomore year. Regardless of whether or not you continue to do the PhD at RPI, that's an excellent program.

At RPI, with physics C credit, you can take courses like quantum physics and theoretical mechanics as early as your first semester, and electromagnetic theory and thermo/statistical mechanics as early as your second semester. Of course, whether that would actually be a good idea or not depends on your background, but you won't have to worry about being underchallenged to start with.

 

[Muu9]

I have applied to Cornell, but haven't received a decision yet. I'd say that I have a decent shot of getting in (1540 SAT, 8 AP, 3 Sports, President of NHS, 3rd in my class), but even if I do the cost may be too much for my family (and I won't receive any financial aid).

Wouldn't RPI cost a similar amount?

 

[CrysPhys]

Of course, whether that would actually be a good idea or not depends on your background, but you won't have to worry about being underchallenged to start with.

Yes, not underchallenged. On the flip side, there's the risk of burn out with such an accelerated program. Also, that program sounds more suited for students who are entering with a clear notion of the field of research they wish to pursue, but such is not the case for the OP:

Hello, my goal is eventually to go to grad school for physics. I am not yet sure what sub-field I find most interesting because all of them are very interesting to me.

 

[Muu9]

Yes, not underchallenged. On the flip side, there's the risk of burn out with such an accelerated program. Also, that program sounds more suited for students who are entering with a clear notion of the field of research they wish to pursue, but such is not the case for the OP:

That level of acceleration is the ceiling, not the floor. And from what I understand, students in that program develop a direction by doing research rotations at multiple labs in different fields in their sophomore year. The fact that the school has so much undergraduate research available that they can make a formal program out of it is a good sign.

 

[schmittno]

Wouldn't RPI cost a similar amount?

I got about half off from merit scholarships

 

[Muu9]

Then I would choose RPI, as they also make it easier to switch majors if you change your mind.

 

[schmittno]

Why (and how) do you restrict yourself to these three (good) schools? I learned a lot at Cornell as an undergrad (long ago !!) and would recommend it. There are many other good choices. What are your constraints?

I just got accepted to Cornell yesterday! Would you say that there is a significant advantage to going there over the other schools I listed? I say this because Cornell would end up costing me 2x as much as the others.

 

[Muu9]

I would not pay double for Cornell, especially when RPI has an accelerated BS/PhD program

 

[hutchphd]

What Cornell offers that the others do not is a uniquely diverse group of extraordinarily talented people, both faculty and student. Your instincts for not wanting to overspend are admirable but what will that mean to you ten years from now.....will $2X create hardship for you (or your family)?. If so, then perhaps a less expensive school may make sense and your technical prowess will still be excellent. But you will not receive an equivalent overall education (In My Humble Opinion). Nor will you generate the same network of talented friends.
You have no bad choices here: count your blessings and enjoy this time! Congratulations.

 

[schmittno]

What Cornell offers that the others do not is a uniquely diverse group of extraordinarily talented people, both faculty and student. Your instincts for not wanting to overspend are admirable but what will that mean to you ten years from now.....will $2X create hardship for you (or your family)?. If so, then perhaps a less expensive school may make sense and your technical prowess will still be excellent. But you will not receive an equivalent overall education (In My Humble Opinion). Nor will you generate the same network of talented friends.
You have no bad choices here: count your blessings and enjoy this time! Congratulations.

Thank you for the meaningful response. It would leave me in a lot of debt, which I don't think would be the best for my future. Would it be sensible to hold off on Cornell for undergrad and aim for Cornell (or a similarly ranked program) for a PhD? (I know that I will have to work hard wherever I go to accomplish this goal)

 

[hutchphd]

.Do a very careful accounting of how that debt load will impact your life. In many ways the choice of undergrad institution will likely be formative to your personal development. It should maximally open you as a human being and so be aware of the real value this embodies. Surely you can (and should) revisit Cornell for possible future education, but this particular opportunity and circumstance will not recur.
I am glad that I made the decision I made in a situation very similar to yours. That being said, I may well have been happier at a more relaxed and less expensive venue. I will never know, but I certainly have no regrets now. One never knows a priori. I feel that you have many good possibilities and will choose a fulfilling and successful path. Happy trails to you .

/

 

[Muu9]

I am glad that I made the decision I made in a situation very similar to yours

How much debt did you take on?

 

[CrysPhys]

Thank you for the meaningful response. It would leave me in a lot of debt, which I don't think would be the best for my future. Would it be sensible to hold off on Cornell for undergrad and aim for Cornell (or a similarly ranked program) for a PhD? (I know that I will have to work hard wherever I go to accomplish this goal)

The criteria for a grad school (PhD program) will be substantially different. By the time you apply for a PhD program, you should have a good idea of the branch of physics (e.g., solid-state, nuclear, high-energy, ...) you wish to do research in. You pick a grad school that has particular strength in the research field of interest. Other factors (such as overall ranking, overall prestige, scope of networking, ...), while important, are less important.

 

[hutchphd]

How much debt did you take on?

Just as an indicator of how much things can change I will regale you with a few tales. Cornell made me a pretty good offer so the financial load less than half full tuition/fees. Of course this was in the seventies so that was an amountI could handle with summer employment and some help fom my parents. But I did think hard about several offers that were full rides (like Michigan was yearning for Merit Scholars and tempted me some. But I trundled off to Ithaca.
Two years later I was in Ohio (my home) for a lucrative summer job when a drunken idiot ran into my friend's car and killed half the occupants. Luckilly I was one of two survivors and spent much of a year getting back to semi-standard form. I got some money from this and that then money became a non-issue. So you never know what the future will hold.......and plans will usually change in ways you cannot know. Anyway I was (am) happy to have those two pre-accident years at Cornell and I am fine now. But if you strive to have a comprerhensive plan for your life, be mindfull of the gods chuckling and chortling in the background........

 

[Muu9]

Of course this was in the seventies so that was an amountI could handle with summer employment and some help fom my parents

Then with all due respect, I don't think your situation is very similar to OP's.

And I'm very sorry to hear about that accident. Many times, the perpetrator often doesn't have enough money to compensate the victims - hence the popular term in the personal injury world of "getting blood from a stone"

 

[gwnorth]

I'm going to disagree with @hutchphd. Your chances at a highly lucrative career with a PhD in Physics are not high. I would be extremely cautious about taking on a significant amount of debt for your undergraduate degree as you are unlikely to see a significant ROI regardless of how well regarded Cornell maybe. PhDs can be extremely stressful, and the relatively low amount of stipends means that many students are additionally dealing with significant amounts of financial stress on top. Going into a PhD with already existing debt in my opinion will just exacerbate an already challenging endeavour. It can also limit your post PhD options if you need to quickly find employment to be able to start paying off that debt and don't have the luxury of time to source out the best post-grad pathway or have to pass up a less lucrative offer that might be the better long time choice (example post-doc, lecturer position, start-up venture etc.). Then there's the other potential knock on effects of needing to delay other life milestones like buying a house or starting a family.

You can get an equally solid undergraduate education at the other schools you have mentioned. What opportunities you have access to are in many parts more a reflection of your abilities and drive, than the school itself. Going to any of the other schools you've mentioned vs Cornell doesn't mean that you are giving up any chances for admission to a top PhD program and they are all solid programs in their own right.

 

[hutchphd]

Going to any of the other schools you've mentioned vs Cornell doesn't mean that you are giving up any chances for admission to a top PhD program and they are all solid programs in their own right.

I agree 100% with that statement and did not mean to indicate otherwise.
But you are more likely to receve a more complete (and therefore "better" IMHO) education at Cornell. How well you learn physics is largely up to you. I paid money for the "e" ticket ride and regret it not at all. It is less of a bargain today I fear.

 

[CrysPhys]

Of course this was in the seventies so that was an amountI could handle with summer employment and some help fom my parents.

I paid money for the "e" ticket ride and regret it not at all. It is less of a bargain today I fear.

<<Emphasis added.>> Yes, this needs emphasis. Looks like I'm approximately the same vintage as you. College tuition has risen at an insane pace over the last 50 yrs. When I discuss tuition with current parents and students, they are absolutely shocked when I tell them that when I graduated from MIT in the mid-seventies, tuition was still slightly under $3000! Paid through a combo of money from my parents, scholarships, summer jobs, and student loans. Repayment of student loans was deferred during my PhD program. After one year of employment after my PhD, I had enough saved up to pay off my student loans in full. This scenario cannot be replicated these days.

 

[hutchphd]

How did we get so lucky?
It is a question of value added for the price. Of course the cost sadly is out of reach for many. But the overall education at the elite schools is, or can be, superior. Everyone I knew at MIT was purely insane How much that is worth in your unknown tomorrow is still a wild card that needs to be considered. What stupid little factoid or attitude will you have (or not have) that hugely changes the trajectory of your existance. A good education is a broad brush. Having a decision to make is major luxury.

 

[CrysPhys]

How did we get so lucky?
It is a question of value added for the price. Of course the cost sadly is out of reach for many. But the overall education at the elite schools is, or can be, superior. Everyone I knew at MIT was purely insane How much that is worth in your unknown tomorrow is still a wild card that needs to be considered. What stupid little factoid or attitude will you have (or not have) that hugely changes the trajectory of your existance. A good education is a broad brush. Having a decision to make is major luxury.

<<Emphasis added.>> Precisely. The problem is that the price is quantifiable and known, whereas the value is not quantifiable and is not known.

@schmittno :

* I'll weigh in on the side that Cornell is likely not worth paying 2X what you would pay at the other universities. It is worth considering, however, if you are not sure that you want to major in physics and might make a substantial shift (e.g., pre-med or pre-law). [Caveat: Any such judgment is purely based on my own experiences and reflect my personal biases. As an undergrad, I was accepted by both Harvard and Cornell; I chose neither. As a grad, I was accepted by both Harvard and Cornell for Physics PhD program; I chose neither. "Brand name" recognition, however, can come into play during your career if you switch fields. That's a whole thread in itself. But as mentioned above, you still have the option of a brand name grad school later.]

* As discussed above, RPI offers the combined undergrad-PhD program. If that's of interest to you, then it's a plus. But as I cautioned, that's more suited for someone who knows what they want.

* If you're leaning towards optics-related research, then U. of Rochester would be the place to go.

* If you might be interested in internships at Brookhaven, then Stony Brook would be the place to go.

* Consider differences in class sizes. And consider whether the first year or two courses will be taught primarily by profs or TAs.

* As I posted earlier, have you visited the campuses to get an idea of the local vibes?

* Whatever your final choice, I wish you good luck and future success.

 

[Muu9]

If you might be interested in internships at Brookhaven, then Stony Brook would be the place to go

How common is this for undergrads at SBU?

 

[CrysPhys]

How common is this for undergrads at SBU?

I don't know. Incorrect wording on my part. I should have written, "If you might be interested in research opportunities at Brookhaven, then the geographic vicinity of Stony Brook would make it viable." As for actual undergrad research opportunities at any of the candidate universities, I had previously recommended that the OP do some homework:

There are two separate issues:

(1) What research areas are the faculty in each university engaged in?

(2) What opportunities does each university provide for undergraduates to participate in research? Not all universities do. But MIT, e.g., has UROP (Undergraduate Research Opportunities Program), which funds and strongly encourages undergrad research.

So you need to find out the answers to both questions for the schools on your list. The first is easy, look up what research is being done at each school. The second may require a bit more digging (contact the physics depts, e.g.).

 

[hutchphd]

The problem is that the price is quantifiable and known, whereas the value is not quantifiable and is not known.

Quibble: The fact that the added value cannot be known a priori means that it cannot be easilly included.....not that it must be ignored!!
This is necessarilly a subjective decision. I don't know what my decision would be today, but the criteria should be as inclusive as possible. I think all arguments discussed so far are valid, and remind the OP that life is often messy and surprising.

 

[CrysPhys]

Quibble: The fact that the added value cannot be known a priori means that it cannot be easilly included.....not that it must be ignored!!
This is necessarilly a subjective decision. I don't know what my decision would be today, but the criteria should be as inclusive as possible. I think all arguments discussed so far are valid, and remind the OP that life is often messy and surprising.

But I never said the value should be ignored. In fact, I said that Cornell offers a plus under some circumstances:

* I'll weigh in on the side that Cornell is likely not worth paying 2X what you would pay at the other universities. It is worth considering, however, if you are not sure that you want to major in physics and might make a substantial shift (e.g., pre-med or pre-law). [Caveat: Any such judgment is purely based on my own experiences and reflect my personal biases. As an undergrad, I was accepted by both Harvard and Cornell; I chose neither. As a grad, I was accepted by both Harvard and Cornell for Physics PhD program; I chose neither. "Brand name" recognition, however, can come into play during your career if you switch fields. That's a whole thread in itself. But as mentioned above, you still have the option of a brand name grad school later.]

<<Emphasis added>>

But my point is that you can't make a compelling argument that, based on the criterion of value/price, Cornell is worth 2X the price of the alternatives (particularly, when potential future grad schools come into play). Too many unknowns (or in your own words, "life is often messy and surprising").

 

[hutchphd]

But my point is that you can't make a compelling argument that, based on the criterion of value/price, Cornell is worth 2X the price of the alternatives (particularly, when potential future grad schools come into play). Too many unknowns (or in your own words, "life is often messy and surprising").

I took this lack of a compelling argument (to choose the more expensive path) to be a tacit endorsement of the alternative. Is that not what you meant ?
The nature of choice with insufficient data is always fraught, and sometimes one should look deeper. Retrospective analysis is always so much clearer.
We are imperfect beings.....and none of the proposed choices is a bad one. Whatever the direction, assume it correct and proceed with joy.

,

 

[CrysPhys]

I took this lack of a compelling argument (to choose the more expensive path) to be a tacit endorsement of the alternative. Is that not what you meant ?
The nature of choice with insufficient data is always fraught, and sometimes one should look deeper. Retrospective analysis is always so much clearer.
We are imperfect beings.....and none of the proposed choices is a bad one. Whatever the direction, assume it correct and proceed with joy.

,

I gave the OP initial homework to help assess their options and then gave further factors to consider. I also gave a bullet list of what I consider to be the strong point for each school. It's up to the OP to come up with their personal list of plusses (and minuses) and assign their personal weighting factor to each. If they can't do such an analysis, then what's left is to write down each candidate on a separate slip, shuffle the slips, and draw one.

I'll rephrase what I wrote above as the plus for Cornell in different terms. Cornell would serve as a hedge: (a) in case the OP decides to switch over to a substantially different major and (b) in case they later choose not to pursue grad school or is not accepted into a brand name or prestigious grad school. If cost at this stage is a key factor (and what the OP wrote so far indicates it is), and if the OP does not think they need to avail themselves of the hedge (TBD), then in the absence of a compelling argument to choose Cornell, I would recommend dropping Cornell from the candidate list.

 

[schmittno]

Thank you anyone who took the time to offer me some advice. I ended up choosing RPI. Although the accelerated PhD was mentioned a lot, I don't have much of an interest in it. I mainly chose RPI for both the atmosphere and cost (I was able to get it down to about 1/3 of Cornell). In addition, if I ever wanted to switch to engineering, I felt as if RPI would be the strongest (excluding Cornell). Again thank you, and I look forward to starting my physics journey!

 

[CrysPhys]

Thank you anyone who took the time to offer me some advice. I ended up choosing RPI. Although the accelerated PhD was mentioned a lot, I don't have much of an interest in it. I mainly chose RPI for both the atmosphere and cost (I was able to get it down to about 1/3 of Cornell). In addition, if I ever wanted to switch to engineering, I felt as if RPI would be the strongest (excluding Cornell). Again thank you, and I look forward to starting my physics journey!

Thanks for letting us know the outcome. That happens too rarely on this forum. I wish you much success on your future college life.

 

[hutchphd]

Thanks for letting us know the outcome. That happens too rarely on this forum

I second that.
Please don't be too single-minded in your physics quest. Work hard and play hard....undergraduate education should be an "opening" experience. I hope and trust you will do very well.

 

[gwnorth]

Sounds like you made a good choice. Best of luck on your educational journey and make sure to enjoy your time at college. It's a unique time in your life.