Why are Maxwell's Equations a complete description of EM?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the completeness of Maxwell's Equations in describing classical electromagnetism. Participants explore the implications of these equations, their relation to Lorentz's Force Law, and whether they adequately account for all electromagnetic phenomena, including interactions with matter and specific effects like the photoelectric effect.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that Maxwell's Equations, along with Lorentz's Force Law, provide a complete description of classical electromagnetism, as they account for all observed electromagnetic phenomena.
  • Others argue that Maxwell's Equations are not complete, citing that they do not describe phenomena such as the photoelectric effect, which requires a quantum mechanical perspective.
  • A participant suggests that while Maxwell's Equations specify the electromagnetic field in a vacuum, additional equations are necessary to explain interactions with matter, including constitutive relations.
  • Concerns are raised about the circular reasoning in defining classical electromagnetism solely by Maxwell's Equations.
  • Some participants reference Richard Feynman's critiques regarding the limitations of Maxwell's theory in explaining certain physical phenomena, particularly in relation to energy and mass equivalence.
  • Questions are posed regarding the Helmholtz decomposition and its applicability to the electric and magnetic fields as described by Maxwell's Equations.
  • A participant notes that the completeness of the interaction between electromagnetic fields and matter remains an open research question, suggesting various references for further exploration.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the completeness of Maxwell's Equations. While some maintain that they provide a full description of classical electromagnetism, others highlight significant limitations, particularly in relation to quantum effects and interactions with matter.

Contextual Notes

Limitations discussed include the dependence on the definitions of classical versus quantum phenomena, the need for additional equations to fully describe interactions with matter, and unresolved questions regarding the implications of energy and mass in electromagnetic theory.

LucasGB
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It is a well-known fact that Maxwell's Equations, along with Lorentz's Force Law, form a complete description of classical electromagnetism. But why is that? I mean, I can understand that Lorentz's Law is necessary for describing the interaction between matter and electromagnetic fields, and I also understand the meaning of the other four equations but could you please explain to me why it is that they say everything which needs to be said about electromagnetism? Is it because the four equations, using the concepts of divergence and curl, completely describe the spatial configurations of the electric and magnetic vector fields, and how they relate to charges and to each other? How do physicist know they're complete?
 
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LucasGB said:
How do physicist know they're complete?

In short, because they describe all electromagnetic phenomenon we observe. The Maxwell's equations were constructed by adding on terms and equations to explain observed effects. This was Maxwell's chief contribution, actually. One could suppose that the second derivative of the electric field with respect to time equals the double curl of the B-field, or some other such nonsense, but such an equation would not be in accord with our experiences.
 
They are not complete. They do not describe the photoelectric effect.
 
LucasGB said:
It is a well-known fact that Maxwell's Equations, along with Lorentz's Force Law, form a complete description of classical electromagnetism. But why is that? I mean, I can understand that Lorentz's Law is necessary for describing the interaction between matter and electromagnetic fields, and I also understand the meaning of the other four equations but could you please explain to me why it is that they say everything which needs to be said about electromagnetism? Is it because the four equations, using the concepts of divergence and curl, completely describe the spatial configurations of the electric and magnetic vector fields, and how they relate to charges and to each other? How do physicist know they're complete?

If I instead re-state your first sentence as "Maxwell's equations completely specify the electromagnetic field in a vacuum", then the explanation is simple- because each two equations completely specify a vector field:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmholtz_decomposition

However, you are also correct that additional equations are needed to explain the interaction of the electromagnetic field with matter. One of these is the Lorentz force equation, but others exist as well- constitutive equations relating (for example) the E and D fields.
 
DaleSpam said:
They are not complete. They do not describe the photoelectric effect.
The photoelectric effect is not classical. Re-read the original post (emphasis mine):

LucasGB said:
It is a well-known fact that Maxwell's Equations, along with Lorentz's Force Law, form a complete description of classical electromagnetism.

Maxwell's equations collectively describe how electromagnetic waves are generated, propagate through space, and interact with matter. They are complete in the sense that Maxwell's equations describes all of these phenomena, but only from a macroscopic point of view. They are not complete when one delves into the microscopic world (e.g., the photoelectric effect).
 
It is a well-known fact that Maxwell's Equations, along with Lorentz's Force Law, form a complete description of classical electromagnetism.
Isn't that a rather circular argument?

Maxwell's Equations perfectly describe classical electromagnetism.
Classical electromagnetism being defined as that which follows Maxwell's Equations!
 
Nabeshin said:
In short, because they describe all electromagnetic phenomenon we observe.

That's interesting, I can see that.

Andy Resnick said:
If I instead re-state your first sentence as "Maxwell's equations completely specify the electromagnetic field in a vacuum", then the explanation is simple- because each two equations completely specify a vector field:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmholtz_decomposition

However, you are also correct that additional equations are needed to explain the interaction of the electromagnetic field with matter. One of these is the Lorentz force equation, but others exist as well- constitutive equations relating (for example) the E and D fields.

Very interesting, but I have a few questions here:

1. Why did you have to specify that they were in a vacuum?
2. I apologize for my poor understanding of this, but from what I understand, Helmholtz Decomposition states that any smooth vector field can be resolved into the sum of a curl-free and a divergence-free vector field. But Maxwell's Equations predict the electric field is not divergence-free everywhere, and the electric and magnetic field are not curl-free under all circumstances.
3. Could you please list the other equations needed to build a complete picture of the interaction between the electromagnetic field and matter?

Thank you all for your patience!
 
LucasGB said:
It is a well-known fact that Maxwell's Equations, along with Lorentz's Force Law, form a complete description of classical electromagnetism.

They are not complete. As Richard Feynman points out in "The Feynman Lectures on Physics", V2, Sect. 28-1, "But we want to stop for a moment to show you that this tremendous edifice, which is such a beautiful success in explaining so many phenomena, ultimately falls on its face." Feynman is referring to the dual facts that (1) U, the total energy in the electrostatic field of a resting spherical shell of charge is a constant times 1/8, whereas electromagnetic mass times c^2 (i.e., mc^2) is the same constant times 1/6. In brief, U=(3/4)mc^2. As Feynman points out, "This formula was discovered before relativity, and when Einstein and others began to realize that it must always be that U=mc^2, there was great confusion."
Poincare suggested that the solution to this conundrum lies in the fact that there are stresses in the spherical shell distribution, and such stresses have an energy density that is not mentioned in Maxwell's theory. You can read all about it in Chapter 28 of Feynman's Lectures, V2.
 
LucasGB said:
<snip>
Very interesting, but I have a few questions here:

1. Why did you have to specify that they were in a vacuum?
2. I apologize for my poor understanding of this, but from what I understand, Helmholtz Decomposition states that any smooth vector field can be resolved into the sum of a curl-free and a divergence-free vector field. But Maxwell's Equations predict the electric field is not divergence-free everywhere, and the electric and magnetic field are not curl-free under all circumstances.
3. Could you please list the other equations needed to build a complete picture of the interaction between the electromagnetic field and matter?

Thank you all for your patience!

Here's my answers:

1) Because E and H are the fields in matter-free (source-free) space. The fields in matter, D and B, can only be related back to E and H by constitutive relations.

2) Both of those sentences are true. See, for example, the section "fields with prescribed divergence and curl" on that wiki page.

3) It's still an open research question. I like E. J. Post's "Formal structure of electromagnetics" (Dover) as a reference for questions like this. Landau and Lifgarbagez vol. 8, Penfield and Haus, "Electrodynamics of moving Media" and Truesdell's "Classical Field Theories" (Handbuch of Physics, vol III/I) also have good information.
 

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