Why aren't hydrogen fuel cell cars more popular than conventional batteries?

[mheslep]

Out of 24 hours, if only 2 or 3 are being used for travel, then a small, well engineered diesel engine, of small horsepower, can drive a generator at a steady speed recharging and maintaining the battery state of charge. It would run continually (24 hours a day) with charge rate being controlled as is common practice today. My thoughts are that it would be much like the refrigerator in a home, cycles would be longer and speeds would be governed by charge demand. For auto's that are not used every day the engine might even be shut down completely.
A separate auto might be needed for more extensive use, but for a serious reduction in energy demands, the mindset of the majority needs to reshaped.

The round trip commute you suggest is all you'd be able to do. You couldn't go on any long trips without stopping every three hours to recharge for five, at least w/ batteries. Ultracaps may help that. Anyway, the thread topic is fuel cells, ostensibly because a) everyone likes the fact that they move all the HC pollution back to a central power plant and b) they're more efficient than any heat cycle engine.

 

[RonL]

Anyway, the thread topic is fuel cells, ostensibly because a) everyone likes the fact that they move all the HC pollution back to a central power plant and b) they're more efficient than any heat cycle engine.

Sorry if i went off-thread with the diesel engine, but the point of my post is how we use the vehicle. A much smaller fuel cell than we need for full power, can be used in the same manor as the ICE mentioned.
The mindset of how we use transportation for local work related travel, needs to change, i know there are reasons that this would not work for everyone, but if the majority in the work force are doing the same things, then this type of adjustment would make a very large reduction in both, fuel, and pollution.

 

[mheslep]

SOFC Text

Just noticed this text by Singhal and Kendal
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1856173879/?tag=pfamazon01-20
but the list price, $245, ouch. Anyone care to suggest another reference?

 

[mheslep]

Looking thru the thread, i see a lot of good comments, and a few links that provide a lot of information for study.
One point of view that i don't see, is that of how we use our vechicles. ...

Chemistree posted this graph up thread on driving http://www.metricmind.com/line_art/us06_us.gif" .

 

[shotgun]

the one thing that may save fuel cells (for hybrid power systems of course) is that they can really last a lot longer than batteries. In this way the batteries can focus chemistry more on high rate and power and less on energy density. I think that when you try to get a lot of power out of a high energy density battery, it's never good. So if the fuel cell can provide the bulk of the energy, and the batteries the power then I think the life of the power system will be improved. At some point, the aux. fuel cell cost can be justified even if it doesn't meet the DOE targets.

 

[mheslep]

US DOE has an extensive, in depth, resource on http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/" .

Each report multi MB pdf.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/2007_avtae_report.pdf"

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/2007_hvso_report.pdf"

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/2007_apeem_report.pdf" 9MB

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/2007_energy_storage.pdf" - everything A-Z on batteries. Ultracap section.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/2005_ace_merit_review.pdf" - mainly just improved efficiency of traditional ICE but also includes hydrogen based ICE

 

[taylaron]

organic fuel cells -fixing the nano-scale problem

Hey, I know this is a bit of a stretch from the traditional way of thinking about fuel cells (and I am certainly no expert) but what is the likelihood of genetically designing a fuel cell? couldn't you use stem cell technology to start the growth of a fuel cell that uses its cells as the building blocks of a incredibly intricate cell. wouldn't that increase the efficiency of fuel cells because we currently don't have a reliable way of making a fuel cell of the complexity and practical size (thus cost) that consumers require. (to my understanding)
I don't know where we are in the bio-engineering stage right now but I certainly think it should be further looked into. heck, we've had some success in growing human organs from stem cells.

this is more of a question than a statement. my entire understanding of this technology could be far off.


see: Growing New Organs http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4212851.html"


thanks,
Taylaron

 

[mheslep]

Taylaron: do a little introductory reading on fuel cells, as what you are suggesting is not relevant to the current technology. The limitations are not from complexity or size (see up thread, some very large fuel cells have been built). One limitation of PEM fuel cells is the cost of the catalyst material required, platinum.

 

[thatotherguy]

Maybe y'all can help out automakers in figuring out a way to make them fuel cells practical for automotive application. I understand that the BMW 7 is already a "production" car which means that it is ready for the road but not yet available in the market because of course of its price. By the way, would using a fuel cell displace the use of some http://www.autopartsdeal.com/"?

 

[mheslep]

By the way, would using a fuel cell displace the use of some http://www.autopartsdeal.com/"?

Absolutely. Take a look at this "[URL car
[/URL]. Its a pure electric battery play, no fuel cell, but you can get the idea by imagining a fuel cell in place of some of the battery load. The transmission and its losses are gone, as is all of those pumps usually seen running off belts on a normal combustion system: alternator, the whole combustion engine oil lubrication system is gone, etc, etc.

 

[thatotherguy]

cool. that means the auto industry has to cope up with that change too right? hopefully, not too many employees working on factories manufacturing these displaced parts would be, well, displaced.

 

[mheslep]

The Tesla recently, finally, went into production. Leno did a piece on it.
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/video_player.shtml?vid=229378\

So did Motortrend
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_0803_2008_tesla_roadster

 

[bassplayer142]

Wouldn't it be smarter to just have plants where the hydrogen cells are turned into electricity. Then you charge your car. I don't see why there is a need for the car to be the source in the first place. All you need is a good battery.

 

[russ_watters]

That would be redundant, bassplayer. The hydrogen plant would be sitting next to a regular power plant.

The point of fuel cell cars is to use the fuel cell instead of a battery.

 

[bassplayer142]

I just don't see how it is more economical to use the fuel cell in a car instead of at some plant instead.

 

[chroot]

Conventional batteries weigh a ton, take time to recharge, have limited lifespans, and most pollute the environment with heavy metals.

Hydrogen fuel cells are a type of battery, since, just like any other battery, they convert chemical energy into electrical energy. Fuel cells just happen to be a much better kind of battery for automotive applications because they don't weigh much, can be recharged essentially "instantly," and do not use large quantities of toxic metals.

- Warren

 

[mheslep]

That would be redundant, bassplayer. The hydrogen plant would be sitting next to a regular power plant.

The point of fuel cell cars is to use the fuel cell instead of a battery.

As discussed up thread in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1585492&postcount=23" and by chroot in #26 its advantageous to use both. Fuel cell to provide average power and traditional batteries or utracaps to provide peak power. Edit: The FC is far too expensive per kw to stand alone.

 

[mheslep]

Conventional batteries weigh a ton, take time to recharge, have limited lifespans, and most pollute the environment with heavy metals.

Hydrogen fuel cells are a type of battery, since, just like any other battery, they convert chemical energy into electrical energy. Fuel cells just happen to be a much better kind of battery for automotive applications because they don't weigh much, can be recharged essentially "instantly," and do not use large quantities of toxic metals.

- Warren

Perhaps you are referring to future performance for fuel cells? Of the metrics listed here, I believe only time-to-recharge (refuel) is an advantage of todays fuel cells over todays batteries. I'd also add range extension, if the fuel is methane or methanol, since an all electric vehicle can really only take round trips without a long stop over.

Weight:
A fair comparison to batteries/ultra caps must include storage tank which, because of the volume required for H2, is inevitably massive. Thus fuel cell kg + tank kg + plumbing kg + fuel kg, I doubt there's much of a weight advantage over Li ion cells. Replace H2 fuel with methane or methanol and then you must add the weight of the reformer. For comparison the http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/perf_specs.php" , ~3400lbs curb weight, 100kw fuel cell is 220lbs/ ~200mi, can't dig up the tank or plumbing weight. The FCX

Life Cycle:
- Time
Fuel cells are subject to stack poisoning from any practical H source. Imperfect water management and disposal over the temp. range of vehicles also reportedly harms FC life. Though the DOE goals are 40,000 hrs, practically I read ~3000 hrs is the current reality. LiIon, at least per the Tesla, is 100,000 mi/10 yrs or again perhaps 3000hrs.
- Disposal
Li Ion batteries are not classified as hazardous waste in the US and can go to the dump unlike lead acid. Dump disposal is not desirable, but then PEM fuel cells (ala the Honda) contain heavy metal catalysts and shouldn't be tossed down in the storm drain either.