You guys are gonna think im either stupid or crazy

[Arsonade]

Its not about giving up at all. In fact you should pursue it until you find...your error.

Thats EXACTLY what i meen, the whole reason I am opening this subject to criticizim is so i can make sure i can get as many points of the spectrum as possible, the constructive criticisim is what i need right now, doubts, arguments, logic, i have my own, i want to make sure i have enough of other's

Adam

 

[pallidin]

Arsonade, please allow me to clarify something.

Are you stating that your PMM idea is not 100% perpetual, rather that it could run for such a long time(say 10-100 years) that it could be useful? OK, if so nothing wrong with that. But please clarify that issue.

Secondly, I am sure you are aware that it is well within common engineering science to construct a finely made spring coil, such that after winding, would go "tick, tock" for decades if not much longer without rewinding. Of course, more energy is required to wind it up than in the totality of it's decade long unwinding and the incremental output is excruciatingly low over such a time period.

And a flywheel, specially engineered, has enormous usefulness, but again more energy is required to ramp it up than is extracted.

So, this all leads to my other request for clarification: Is your device such that it needs "charging", electrically or mechanically, and that this "potential" is released over a long period of time? Or do you suggest that no "charging" is needed?

Thank you, and I look forward to your responses.

 

[Relain]

hehe is it better than the carnot engine i have running on my desk? smirks

 

[Arsonade]

Arsonade, please allow me to clarify something.

Are you stating that your PMM idea is not 100% perpetual, rather that it could run for such a long time(say 10-100 years) that it could be useful? OK, if so nothing wrong with that. But please clarify that issue.

Secondly, I am sure you are aware that it is well within common engineering science to construct a finely made spring coil, such that after winding, would go "tick, tock" for decades if not much longer without rewinding. Of course, more energy is required to wind it up than in the totality of it's decade long unwinding and the incremental output is excruciatingly low over such a time period.

And a flywheel, specially engineered, has enormous usefulness, but again more energy is required to ramp it up than is extracted.

So, this all leads to my other request for clarification: Is your device such that it needs "charging", electrically or mechanically, and that this "potential" is released over a long period of time? Or do you suggest that no "charging" is needed?

Thank you, and I look forward to your responses.

100% perpetual, i would say that if it was ever going to begin to malfunction, it would do so in thousonds of years, but that would be human error, ex: a hole drilled in the wrong spot by .000000000000000000000000000000000001 of an inch, one stand being slightly longer than the other, ect. no charging necacary.

 

[Arsonade]

hehe is it better than the carnot engine i have running on my desk? smirks

lol

Adam

 

[MiGUi]

OK now youre completely off track, tempeture has almost nothing to do with my PMM, i sopose it could melt if it got hot enough or freze if it got cold enough, but unless i launched it into the sun or douced it in liquid nitrogen, I am not woried bout it.

Adam

What does your machine to be catalogued as a PPM? because a PPM is what I said before.
If your machine is the 1st specie, then it can get heat and transform all of it into work, without disipation. Thats like a ship that gets the heat from the sea, its motor moves the helix and the rest goes to the sea by friction.
If your machin is a 2nd specie one, then you can freeze a beer, spontaneously, without consumption of work.

So...

 

[Chi Meson]

100% perpetual, i would say that if it was ever going to begin to malfunction, it would do so in thousonds of years, but that would be human error, ex: a hole drilled in the wrong spot by .000000000000000000000000000000000001 of an inch, one stand being slightly longer than the other, ect. no charging necacary.

THis is revealing. So a precision of 10^-38 meters is required? I think this right here reveals a flaw since this is one billionth of a billionth of a billionth of the diameter of a hydrogen atom. You left the realm of reality about 26 zeros ago.

 

[Arsonade]

What does your machine to be catalogued as a PPM? because a PPM is what I said before.
If your machine is the 1st specie, then it can get heat and transform all of it into work, without disipation. Thats like a ship that gets the heat from the sea, its motor moves the helix and the rest goes to the sea by friction.
If your machin is a 2nd specie one, then you can freeze a beer, spontaneously, without consumption of work.

So...

my PMM has an axle that spins, it does not need to heat up or cool down to keep going, temperature is not a factor at all, either youre not explining this or youre kind of single-minded, no offence

Adam

 

[Arsonade]

THis is revealing. So a precision of 10^-38 meters is required? I think this right here reveals a flaw since this is one billionth of a billionth of a billionth of the diameter of a hydrogen atom. You left the realm of reality about 26 zeros ago.

In any moter that has been created, can you mesure exactly how long it will spin, to the millisecond? of corse not, a drill off by a nanometer can slowly cause malfunction and a shorter running period. The fact it, as far as my PMM goes, there is very little chance that human error would be a problem, in a perfect world, it would run forever, but in the midst of earthquakes, floods, a nanometer of error in a drilled hole, with anything out of the ordinary, things can happen out of the ordinary. If i were to have an electric moter, bothe exactly the same except that te axle of one is slightly thicker than the other, chances are they would not run for exactly the same time under the exact same conditions, human flaw is not an extremely major problem in my PMM, and i do not think that it is a flaw worth worrying about, If i were claiming to have made it perfectly, i would be lying. Bottom line, human error, while very unlikely in my PMM, would be a slight and unpreventable flaw in not just my PMM, but in anything short of being made by nature.

Adam

 

[Chi Meson]

Good luck with your machine.

 

[Arsonade]

Good luck with your machine.

Thanks

Adam

 

[ophecleide]

who said anything about getting energy from nothing , i won't say any more on where it's coming from though, that would give it away.

Adam

P.S. i have a fealing that this reply will discourage even more of you but it still is a perpetual motion mechine, no hoax

If it's a perpetual motion machine, then by definition, it is capable of going on forever (within human error, I'll give you that). If you are extracting mechanical energy from it, then there is no avoiding it: you must get this energy from somewhere. There is no source of energy which is completely inexhaustible. You may have explained this before, and I misunderstood you, but is this truly a perpetual motion machine in that it can, in theory, continually produce energy forever, or do you mean it can draw from an energy source which is, in all practicality (but not theory), endless (such as converting the mass from some other galaxy into energy or whatever)? If you are not drawing from an exhaustible source, then you must be getting energy from nothing, unless this is the entire basis for your machine. It's too bad you can't tell us more details, because I'd be really curious to learn where exactly this energy is coming from. I don't blame you for not providing more information as if I really thought I had come up with such a device, I too would be careful as to whom I gave this information, but you'd be a lot more likely to learn what is wrong (or we'd learn to what degree we misunderstand physics) if you would provide more information.

Either way, good luck.

 

[Arsonade]

If it's a perpetual motion machine, then by definition, it is capable of going on forever (within human error, I'll give you that). If you are extracting mechanical energy from it, then there is no avoiding it: you must get this energy from somewhere. There is no source of energy which is completely inexhaustible. You may have explained this before, and I misunderstood you, but is this truly a perpetual motion machine in that it can, in theory, continually produce energy forever, or do you mean it can draw from an energy source which is, in all practicality (but not theory), endless (such as converting the mass from some other galaxy into energy or whatever)? If you are not drawing from an exhaustible source, then you must be getting energy from nothing, unless this is the entire basis for your machine. It's too bad you can't tell us more details, because I'd be really curious to learn where exactly this energy is coming from. I don't blame you for not providing more information as if I really thought I had come up with such a device, I too would be careful as to whom I gave this information, but you'd be a lot more likely to learn what is wrong (or we'd learn to what degree we misunderstand physics) if you would provide more information.

Either way, good luck.

First of all, i am in no way stating that you guys misunderstand physics, you guys are the most well read in physics I've ever met. OK, all I am going to say is this, the source of this energy, in only one unit, would eventually loose power, but in the multitude i have it, (52 exactly) their power would continue to provide forever, providing it stays intact, (meaning anything from human error to the sun exploding) The fact is that the output of the energy produced is greater than that in the units providing it, in a sence, streching the energy out to a degree that if the power source was not unlimited, it would run out faster than it should. but since the power suply is unlimeted, i get a greater power output forever. I need to sort out the pattent info out b 4 i give away any mor info.

Adam

 

[Antonio Lao]

Adam,

Your perpetual motion machine will work only if it runs on purely (100%) magnetic force. The problem is that, by current technologies, this force also depends on the existence of electric charge and this clearly introduces the impurities of electric force. The combined force becomes electromagnetic. Perpetual motion machines must be purely magnetic.

 

[Arsonade]

Adam,

Your perpetual motion machine will work only if it runs on purely (100%) magnetic force. The problem is that, by current technologies, this force also depends on the existence of electric charge and this clearly introduces the impurities of electric force. The combined force becomes electromagnetic. Perpetual motion machines must be purely magnetic.

im not 100% sure what you mean, yes my PMM (and i might regret saying this) uses magnets, adn essecially, it is 100% magnetic force providing the energy, the magnets that i use however do not need recharging, they are by definition permenant. could you explin your ideas here?

Adam

 

[Antonio Lao]

The magnetic force is the second term of the Lorentz force.

F = f_E + F_B = qE + q v \times B

The magnetic force is F_B = q v \times B

This force cannot be separated unless the charge q is not defined or equal unity or any number not zero but greater than unity. The charge is source of the electric field E. In vacuum, there are no charge yet both E-field and B-field exist. And the interaction of the E-B field in vacuum gives the speed of light as a constant. In matter, the E-B field interaction always give a speed less than light speed.

 

[Antonio Lao]

The experimental value of the unit electric charge, q, is 1.60 x 10^{-19} coulomb. This is a very small number. To make the magnetic force effective, q must be unit or greater. The greater is the unit charge, the longer your PMM will run.

 

[Arsonade]

The magnetic force is the second term of the Lorentz force.

F = f_E + F_B = qE + q v \times B

The magnetic force is F_B = q v \times B

This force cannot be separated unless the charge q is not defined or equal unity or any number not zero but greater than unity. The charge is source of the electric field E. In vacuum, there are no charge yet both E-field and B-field exist. And the interaction of the E-B field in vacuum gives the speed of light as a constant. In matter, the E-B field interaction always give a speed less than light speed.

who said anything bout light speed?

 

[Arsonade]

The experimental value of the unit electric charge, q, is 1.60 x 10^{-19} coulomb. This is a very small number. To make the magnetic force effective, q must be unit or greater. The greater is the unit charge, the longer your PMM will run.

These magnets are permenant, www.wondermagnets.com if you don't believe me, nto completely sure about the equesions, but ill get it

Adam

 

[Antonio Lao]

Adam,

The light speed comes from the interaction of electricity and magnetism in outer space, the vacuum. But this interaction is always less than light speed inside matter such as a machine that you built. The two main properties of this interaction are the permeability of the magnetic materials (current density) and the permittivity of the electrical components (voltages).

The next critical thing to consider is the power output of the machine. Power is the product of the current and the voltage. This is different in both DC and AC circuits. Power is the determining factor in knowing whether the machine can do all the works needed to run other electromotive machineries such as a dishwahser, etc.

FYI: every elementary particle like electron (unit of electricity), neutrinos do possesses magnetic moment. So in a sense they are all PMMs.

 

[Arsonade]

Adam,

The light speed comes from the interaction of electricity and magnetism in outer space, the vacuum. But this interaction is always less than light speed inside matter such as a machine that you built. The two main properties of this interaction are the permeability of the magnetic materials (current density) and the permittivity of the electrical components (voltages).

The next critical thing to consider is the power output of the machine. Power is the product of the current and the voltage. This is different in both DC and AC circuits. Power is the determining factor in knowing whether the machine can do all the works needed to run other electromotive machineries such as a dishwahser, etc.

FYI: every elementary particle like electron (unit of electricity), neutrinos do possesses magnetic moment. So in a sense they are all PMMs.

Well so much for inveting somthing that doesn't copy anything in nature lol, but that's besides the point. Power output would, by my experiments, be very high, the axle would most likely spin much like a car's wheel's going maybe...im going to say 50-60 mph. it would also have very close to the force in a car moter; strong, and this would just be the model, The actuall PMM, after i get a pattent and get enough money to start a company (if this does work there's no way I am selling it to some major company and then loose controll over it), the actull PMMs or Perpetual Power Plants (PPP) as i would call them, would be relitively huge, i do not have the details with me at the moment but if i renembr the actual would be about 10, 20, 30, or maybe 40 meters in height, very big, but it should produce more than enough electricity to power a city such as New York. The power output however is not the essecial factor, its just the way to make money off of it.

Adam

P.S. and by the way, the fact that this thing takes in no fuel would bring the energy cost down a lot, this energy would probably be cheaper than many used now.

 

[Antonio Lao]

Have you approach any prospective iinvestor? Or are you going to finance it yourself?

 

[MiGUi]

Ok, if you put a satellite in orbit, being in rest, it will come back to the Earth due to gravity. If you use a magnetic field to rule your machine, it can't be a PMM, because disipative forces exists and the energy which uses can not be back. A PMM don't need to take outter energy for its movement.

In case that your magnets were trully permanent (something which I doubt, due to magnetic hysteresis), you don't have a PMM.

You don't want to understand the meaning of a PMM. Learn a bit of thermodynamics before reply.

 

[Arsonade]

Ok, if you put a satellite in orbit, being in rest, it will come back to the Earth due to gravity. If you use a magnetic field to rule your machine, it can't be a PMM, because disipative forces exists and the energy which uses can not be back. A PMM don't need to take outter energy for its movement.

In case that your magnets were trully permanent (something which I doubt, due to magnetic hysteresis), you don't have a PMM.

You don't want to understand the meaning of a PMM. Learn a bit of thermodynamics before reply.

Man i am sorry but i don't think you understand me here, gravity is not an problem with this PMM, it has been neutralized to friction, I know Thermo dynamics I've been studying it for a while so i would be prepared to reply to any and all posts, the magnets are truly permanent, and my PMM does not need to take energy from another source, I've never said that and to do so would prove my invention as a hoax.

Adam

P.S. and the fact that you even sugested i "don't want to understand the meaning of a PMM" makes me sick.

 

[Arsonade]

Have you approach any prospective iinvestor? Or are you going to finance it yourself?

Now i realize that i shouldn't count all my chicken before they hatch, but i have given this a lot of thought, I think that i will try to get a loan, i have a strong fealing that if i get this thing built on the scale that it would need to be, i could pay back the debt in 2 to 3 years from construction. Financing it myself would prove to be extremely hard, the model itself will wind up costing a lot, but a full size model, i could work for years and not get that much money. The fact is that i don't want to sell it to a company of any sort, if this thing works, GE, Duracell, in fact almost any company out there will be making offers of billion, the fact is, i would make a lot more, and have a lot more fun with it if i was in controll.

Adam

P.S. i realize that this sounds conceded or overconfident to be worying about these things, but if my PMM works, whitch it will, it will be beter to have given this consideration then to have not.

 

[Antonio Lao]

Adam,

Looks like you are in control of the whole situation. It is admirable for me to know that someone like you has mastered his own destiny unlike other less fortunate mortals like me.

 

[Arsonade]

Adam,

Looks like you are in control of the whole situation. It is admirable for me to know that someone like you has mastered his own destiny unlike other less fortunate mortals like me.

...im assuming youre being sarcastic, but either way, thanks, if everybody out there want to keep sending replys, be my guest, to those that did reply, your critisisim, doubts, and questioning have allowed me to perfect my PMM and also find ways to counter this critisisim. I am not so sure about me "mastering my own destiny", but i do my best lol. as for the "less fortunate mortals", i don't think i want to know.

Adam

P.S. ill still be checking replys dailly, i hope that this is not the last of the replys, You guys are really the most well read in physics i have ever met, half of the things that you mentioned i had to go look up, hoping i could still counter the argument. Thanks.

P.P.S. Bluedige, for some reason i couldn't reply to your mail, the computer for some reason wouldn't let me, do you have an aternate e-mail?

 

[Antonio Lao]

Adam,

Just what a PMM is forever, I would like to live forever. Maybe someday I can save enough money to buy one of your PMMs, only hope by that time inflation does not make your PMM next to priceless.

 

[Arsonade]

Adam,

Just what a PMM is forever, I would like to live forever. Maybe someday I can save enough money to buy one of your PMMs, only hope by that time inflation does not make your PMM next to priceless.

kind of a legasy huh man. either way, model PMMs would not be that hard to mke, but of corse the class of truly perpetual PMMs would look a lot like a block of lead with wires coming out of it lol, but the PMM that would die out in a few hundred-thousond years would probably look preaty cool. Whitchever one it is, ill send you one when i make it. Thanks for the confidence, critizisim, and all around help, its more than paid for a PMM.

Adam

P.S. Inflation...hmmm...i have considered one flaw, when i relece this PMM onto the world, well, truly clean, cheep, all around perfect energy, no self respecting city or town would bother with any other kind, excepting dams and maybe wind power, the PMM being more efficient. I expect my mechine will put a lot of people out of work, imagine, the recent quest for oil in the middle east, found to be worthless. Ill be praised by enviormentaists and damned by almost everyone elce, who knows, Too many factors even for a physisist.

 

[ram2048]

i'm not sure myself but i thought perpetual motion machine meant that you put energy into it once and it would continue forever, not that it got its motive energy from an infinite or permanent source.

if you're getting your energy from magnets then what you have is a magnetic motion machine, not a perpetual motion machine.

if you're putting power into a closed system and the net result is some form of positive "work" such that you remove the power and work continues "perpetually" then you would have a PMM.

i designed a perpetual motion machine once but never got around to building it.

consisted of magnets, a surface almost frictionless, and some toggles.

[N-o-S] (_____________________[N---S]__)[S-o-N]

3 magnets, 2 on the outside and one inside a near frictionless container.

the magnet in the center would move away from the "like pole" on the right and accelerate to the other end attracted to the opposing pole. when it hit the end it would also hit a toggle that would rotate the magnets on both ends 180 degrees. maybe add some springs in the ends of the tubes to return some of the force from hitting the ends.

in any case when i presented this as a PMM to my physics prof he said it wouldn't be a real PMM because it uses magnetic force