You guys are gonna think im either stupid or crazy

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The discussion revolves around an individual's claim of creating a perpetual motion machine, despite the consensus that such devices violate fundamental laws of physics, particularly the laws of thermodynamics. Participants express skepticism, emphasizing that perpetual motion would require the invalidation of conservation laws and that many similar claims have historically failed. The inventor seeks feedback and is hesitant to share details due to patent concerns, while others suggest finding a trusted expert for advice. There is a debate on whether the machine relies on external energy sources, with participants urging the inventor to provide more information for constructive criticism. Ultimately, the conversation highlights the challenges of patenting unconventional ideas and the importance of transparency in scientific discourse.
  • #101
baffledMatt said:
Well, as sceptical as I am of your 'PMM', I really hope you do make it work because it might just stop all these bloody war-for-oil things I hear so much about.

Matt

Thanks matt, to be honest, it may not, Oil may not be used for fuel anymore, but my secondary invention that goes along with my PMM, somthing to levitate the axle whitch I am sure most of you will reallise what it is, but it would not really be able to be aplied to somthing such as a car, oil would probably still be in demand, unfortunatly.

Adam
 
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  • #102
farmerTom said:
A PPM may not truly exist especially if certain arreys of magnets are present. You would have to take the value of the stored energy into account, but being able to generate more energy than an alternator or generator uses is quite posible. But you'll probably find out that after you factor in all the varibles its not over/anything for free. Call it what you want, I'ld probably be more inclined to call mine an improvement on said existing device.

I do know of 2 machines in existence, both with some bugs. When you seek help, instead of assistance you'll get quotes about the 3rd law of thermodynamics, and any other physical law that was devised by 3 old men with a coal fired steam engine as a test bench. Forget about digital controled, forget about recent tech advances, forget about an original concept, because its easier for most ppl to just say no and quote someone then it is to actually help you.

Do be carefull as to whom and what you are discussing this with, pll like to take things. They also like to keep what they got. With an oilmans economy and a oilman president in the US right now you may meet a little sceptisism.

Ok...

Ussually in an electrical generating device you'll encounter a host of things that offer resistance between your goal and what you started with. Bearings and the air are a real drag, overcoming as much as u can here will help u achive a plus #. Copper loss, no superconducters are available at the moment that'll work at room temperature or above, so with that added we have a resistance in our electrical loop. Heat from resistance of any type also wreaks havoc on a curcuit either it be mechanical or electrical. Heat in an electric curcuit can be devistating, form a sort of inductor, and also make a rather nice resister cause electric conductors can only move so many electrons and if they are bouncing at random like heat there goes that + for your machine.

The key notes:

1)friction from bearings
2)friction from air
3)poor electrical conectors (to much resistance)
4)heat

Some other things that can effect a spinning type machine ar poor 3d balanceing...aka angular momentum. It'll put an extra drag on most bearing types and is had to counter, or balance out.

Anyway if you need a better explanation, or would like to discuss this in a non-obvious way reply. I'm working on a series of optimations for an alternator type machine, its unreal at the amount of things ppl miss when they just except what now is as what will be 4ever, welcome to the 21st century folks.....

:smile:

man you are cool, first of all, i completely understand what you meen, when i first told people that i made a PMM the first thing that was shot at me was the laws of thermodynamics, it didn't matter if the mechine made sense or not, it didn't matter about the physics of it, and i can guarantee you that no one tried to visualise this mechine, and this was with diagrams. The only help that was given to me was to understand the laws of thermodynamics and to comply with them, well i did tudy them and i went back and i proved them wrong, and they just refused to listen. I hate to think that i cannot trust anyone but with somthing of this importance to me i feel that i can't afford to, where i grow up, people have little chance of becoming anything, those who try the hardest loose all childhood and personality and those who give up and accept life as it is wind up even worse. I realized from the look in my science teecher's eyes that he thought this was his lucky break, not mine, luckilly i had shown him no diagrams, and he got preaty mad when i refused, who can i trust? Well that's my take on my PMM's philosophy, now, down to the physics. #1, friction from air, solved that with a vacume, now this may sound obvios and yes i know that there is actually a miniscule amount of friction in a vacuum and that man has never actually created a perfect vacume, but what we have is perfectly suitable. #2, Sorry, mixed that up, just switch this with # 1, ok friction form bearings, I have come up with somthing that i can bet has already been thought up and disproved but honestly, i think with enough calibration it can work, its called a NFS or No Friction Stand (i have a habit of acronyms). The NFS attaches to the spinning axle and basicly levitates the entire contraption. as for #3, electricity would only be implimented in the harnessing of the electrity, i would use the friction of the turbine to keep the PMM from spinning out of controll and basically exploding, again it is not a matter of too much or too little friction, it is a matter of calibration coupled with experimentation that will perfect this mechine. as for #4, the only heat that i can forsee is that of the turbine/genorator/engine/what ever the propper name, this Turbine would actually be contained within the vacume, as you know, heat canot travel without matter to travel through but then again, what about the vacuum of space and the sun, anyway, i doubt that the vacuum will stop the heat, most thermoses use vacumes but they still get warm, no, the vacuum will serve to decrece the heat, this will sustain the genorator. Doubts may arise here, with heat, won't the georator eventually break? not to worry, i have a few more tricks up my sleave, for example, a backup genorator whitch i know, would not constitute as a perpetual motion mechine because it would technically be fueled by genorators, but one has to see here, that the genorator is not actually a part of my PMM, it is the profit, if i were to replace that genorator with anything tht causes friction, i could get the same effect, but i would not be able to harness the electity, it would be a PMM, but it wouldn't be helping anyone. I am not quite sure what you meen by angular momentum, the rotation of the Earth perhaps? that would not be a reall problem with the NFS. The real reason for the sucsess of this PMM is it's versitility, i can change almost any aspect of teh mechine, there are almost unlimited posibilitys and only one of them will work, i have a fealing that it will be easyer than it sounds.

Adam

P.S. I hope i didn't write too much, if this is too big, i may have to take out the quote. As for people acepting things as they are, not seeing the posibilitys, not seeing the vision, how could this be more related to a PMM lol :smile:
 
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  • #103
farmerTom said:
A liitle extra, can't call this a theory though:


I wonder if a magnet is stored energy, or a device that merely channels/aligns energy that is external its self?

Is a super conductor posible with an organic molecule...posiblably a oil dirivative...
would a mutable matrix be better suited for conducting a certain frequency range?

heres Johnny:

http://www.uspto.gov/

lol now that went right over my head, this might interest you, www.wondermagnet.com[/url] wither that or it's [url]www.wondermagnets.com[/URL] , not sure

Adam
 
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  • #104
farmerTom said:
...wonder if a magnet is stored energy, or a device that merely channels/aligns energy that is external its self?

If there is a force, there is energy associated with the force. Since there is a magnetic force, we can be certain that there is energy of the magnetic field.

But the vacuum is thought by many scientists to have no force, no mass, and yet it is the seat of infinite number of zero-point energy.
 
  • #105
Hey!

OK guys I am not sure if anybody is going to reply to this cause I am not sure if anyone elce is still lookin @ this post, either way, i have a question about magnets that could prove usefull in the making of this mechine, My main question is, is there an alloy or metal that can block a magnetic field? I know there is, i have heard about it in MRIs and CAT scans and my Physics Professer friend mentioned it at some point, but what is it? Any ideas go ahead and reply, if i don't hear back within 5 days though, ill start a new post.

Adam

P.S. This post is really old now lol
 
  • #107
Arsonade said:
My main question is, is there an alloy or metal that can block a magnetic field?
Ahh, I get it now - you think by blocking and un-blocking a magnetic field you can get free energyin a sort of powerles motor. Very, very common hoax/error: you can't, but maybe you need to build it before you believe it...
 
  • #108
russ_watters said:
Ahh, I get it now - you think by blocking and un-blocking a magnetic field you can get free energyin a sort of powerles motor. Very, very common hoax/error: you can't, but maybe you need to build it before you believe it...

...no, in fact the PMM would work just fine without any magnetic blocking, it would just be a lot more effecient with it, maybe adding more to the ooutput, makeing it spin faster, if it had been a key factor i would have introduced it earlyer on. also, i think that steel is the alloy i am looking for, have to double check.

Adam
 
  • #109
In the strictest sense, magnetic shielding is not truly shielding at all. Unlike the way a lead shield stops X-rays, magnetic shielding materials create an area of lower magnetic field in their vicinity by attracting the magnetic field lines to themselves. The physical property which allows them to do this is called "permeability".

got this from a link off site #1, this is all i needed, i don't need to stop the fields so much as weaken them in certain ares, this is mostly in the effort of building, also, this will prevent magnetic fields from interfering with each other enough to increce the output of my PMM signifigantly, Thanks!

Adam
 
  • #110
You can completely shield a magnetic field using a superconductor. Nothing else will work.
 
  • #111
Gokul43201 said:
You can completely shield a magnetic field using a superconductor. Nothing else will work.

Ya i found sum foil like stuff online, forget wat it's called though.

Adam
 
  • #112
The best (highest Tc) superconductors around work only at about 140K (that's nearly -200F) !
 
  • #113
Gokul43201 said:
The best (highest Tc) superconductors around work only at about 140K (that's nearly -200F) !

ya an my magnets won't work at that temp,of corse, there is another kind, but no, that's too complicated (theres a new type of magnet, ceramic in liquid nitrogen temps with an electiic current run through it has proven to be stronger than a neodyum magnet but of couse that meens my entire mechinism encased in liquid nitrogen goodbye no friction, i bet my structuure would fall apart and i would still need to run power through those ceramics, ill stick (no pun intended) to my origional plan) but no, I've seen some less effective supercunducters that work @ room temp, just some of that should work for what i need it.

Adam

P.S. I've been raising money for this PMM and i should have enough to buy the materials by the end of the summer if I am lucky, i know i can get a pattent aplication but i havnt been able to, anybody want to walk me through on the website?
 
  • #114
re

I just can't take a guy seriously who says he has invented a PMM, yet continually spells patent wrong.

Ravenlock
 
  • #115
Ravenlock said:
I just can't take a guy seriously who says he has invented a PMM, yet continually spells patent wrong.

Ravenlock

lol now there's na excuse, i have the soulution to worldwide cheep clean energy and this guy thinks I am lying cause i made some spelling mistakes lol, i was exited man, i get exited about this stuff, i just went fast is all, stop reading the words and listen to wat I am saying.

Adam
 
  • #116
Arsonade said:
lol now there's na excuse, i have the soulution to worldwide cheep clean energy and this guy thinks I am lying cause i made some spelling mistakes...
Not lying, just wrong. It really should tell you something that we can be so confident that you are wrong without knowing much of anything about your device. You have made an error and you need to find it before you waste any more time/money in this pursuit. Pursuing a patent will get expensive.

Have you at least researched to compare your device to other PMMs?
 
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  • #117
russ_watters said:
Not lying, just wrong. It really should tell you something that we can be so confident that you are wrong without knowing much of anything about your device. You have made an error and you need to find it before you waste any more time/money in this pursuit. Pursuing a patent will get expensive.

Have you at least researched to compare your device to other PMMs?

yes i have, i still find my design to lack the flaws that others did, friction, power source, acceleration, ect, all problems that mine has managed to get through, i do realize that, I am not stupid, as soon as i mentioned this to others for their oppinion they got that "o great not another one" smile on their face and patiently described the reasons why it wouldn't work, some didnt even look at the designs befor they sent me off without any kind of help. They were confident that i was wrong too, if i had made an error, i think 3 years should have been enough time to find an error, as i have over the years, but instead of giving up, i simply changed the designs and eliminated the problem, it has gotten to the point where i can serriosly doubt that an eroor has been made short of a very trivial one (like what the thing is actually made of for example, i was thinking about industrial strength plastic) whitch could be changed without a second thought. I truly believe any and all serios errors have been found and fixed, so now i have found no errors, what is you sugestion now? well i know what i am going to do, i am going to get as many talks and interveiw with phycasists with nondisclosure forms as i can, when i have enough people to back this up, that's when ill send in My Pattent.

Adam

P.S. Sorry if i sound a little grumpy, I am tired and i have to study for my Spanish exam tomorow
 
  • #118
Arsonade said:
friction, power source, acceleration, ect, all problems that mine has managed to get through...
To help you focus, what you are looking for are 1st law of thermo issues. Don't bother with friction, acceleration, and other losses, they are 2nd law issues. What prevents PPMs from creating useful work is the 1st law: Pout=Pin. The fact that your calculations come up with a non-zero net (>100% efficiency) means you are either neglecting a source of input or a source of internal consumption. A typical thermodynamic engine, for example, has an efficiency of around 35%, before you even consider losses. Electrical devices have a theoretical maximum efficiency of 100%.

I may have suggested this before, but a cheap way to fix this would be to hire an electrical engineer for an hour or two, with a written contract stating that he can't market your device. He'd likely find your error in 5 minutes and charge you $125 for the whole hour, but it'd save you a ton of time and money in the long run.
 
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  • #119
or build the device yourself out of popsicle sticks and elmer's. nothing like first hand experience to remove all doubt...
 
  • #120
Here is a actual quote from the US Patent Office regarding PPM's

"The views of the Patent Office are in accord with those scientists who have investigated the subject and are to the effect that such devices are physical impossibilities. The position of the Office can only be rebutted by a working model. ... The Office hesitates to accept fees from applicants who believe they have discovered Perpetual Motion, and deems it only fair to give such applicants a word of warning that fees cannot be recovered after the case has been considered by the Examiner"

I just thought that was interesting.
 
  • #121
Ravenlock said:
Here is a actual quote from the US Patent Office regarding PPM's

"The views of the Patent Office are in accord with those scientists who have investigated the subject and are to the effect that such devices are physical impossibilities. The position of the Office can only be rebutted by a working model. ... The Office hesitates to accept fees from applicants who believe they have discovered Perpetual Motion, and deems it only fair to give such applicants a word of warning that fees cannot be recovered after the case has been considered by the Examiner"

I just thought that was interesting.

i believe that it says, Can only be rebutted by a working model, so ill build a working model, i already said that i plan to

Adam
 
  • #122
russ_watters said:
To help you focus, what you are looking for are 1st law of thermo issues. Don't bother with friction, acceleration, and other losses, they are 2nd law issues. What prevents PPMs from creating useful work is the 1st law: Pout=Pin. The fact that your calculations come up with a non-zero net (>100% efficiency) means you are either neglecting a source of input or a source of internal consumption. A typical thermodynamic engine, for example, has an efficiency of around 35%, before you even consider losses. Electrical devices have a theoretical maximum efficiency of 100%.

I may have suggested this before, but a cheap way to fix this would be to hire an electrical engineer for an hour or two, with a written contract stating that he can't market your device. He'd likely find your error in 5 minutes and charge you $125 for the whole hour, but it'd save you a ton of time and money in the long run.

Now hold on, i never said that it worked at 100% efficiancy, i said that it was close, there is very little error available in the design and therefore works relitively efficiant. would that be more expensive that asking a physisist? and the electronics are not really the problem, the only elctic component is the generator.

Adam
 
  • #123
ram1024 said:
or build the device yourself out of popsicle sticks and elmer's. nothing like first hand experience to remove all doubt...

lol well popsticle sticks would break and wouldn't give me nearly enough info, it wouldn't even be big enough for the magnets, no, i can't go that cheep.

Adam
 
  • #124
use smaller magnets.

if it works on a small scale it'll work on a larger scale as well. nothing says your machine has to be house-sized ;D
 
  • #125
u can't use magnets for a perpetual motion machine, magnet (permanent ones) wear off over time. Eletromagnets are a whole different story, and obviously can't be used for perpetual motion.
 
  • #126
Arsonade said:
Now hold on, i never said that it worked at 100% efficiancy, i said that it was close, there is very little error available in the design and therefore works relitively efficiant.
If it doesn't work at above 100% efficiency then it doesn't output more than is put in and it isn't a PMM. If its just a >1 C.O.P., (like a heat pump or a hydroelectric dam) then it isn't perpetual motion.
would that be more expensive that asking a physisist? and the electronics are not really the problem, the only elctic component is the generator.
Ask whatever type of scientist/engineer that would understand the energy input/conversion. I was getting the picture that you have a fancy circuit of some sort that makes it appear you are getting more out than is being put in. That's why I suggested an EE.

May I ask what type of energy you have for an input?
 
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  • #127
ArmoSkater87 said:
u can't use magnets for a perpetual motion machine, magnet (permanent ones) wear off over time. Eletromagnets are a whole different story, and obviously can't be used for perpetual motion.

Look theses magnets do wear out, but the energy used I am making them is easyly 1 billionth of the amount of energy produced in the length of time, the chances of me having to replace these magnets is slim, but in that event i am ready.

Adam
 
  • #128
ram1024 said:
use smaller magnets.

if it works on a small scale it'll work on a larger scale as well. nothing says your machine has to be house-sized ;D

cant getem that small, it needs to be at least 2 feet high

Adam
 
  • #129
russ_watters said:
If it doesn't work at above 100% efficiency then it doesn't output more than is put in and it isn't a PMM. If its just a >1 C.O.P., (like a heat pump or a hydroelectric dam) then it isn't perpetual motion. Ask whatever type of scientist/engineer that would understand the energy input/conversion. I was getting the picture that you have a fancy circuit of some sort that makes it appear you are getting more out than is being put in. That's why I suggested an EE.

May I ask what type of energy you have for an input?

really there is no kind of imput energy, that would kind of take away from the meaning of a closed system, magnettic? is that a good answer lol. Ill try the best i can with the nondisclosure form stuff, I am workin on it.\

Adam
 
  • #130
The universe is in itself a perpetual motion machine, I'll bet with many more undiscovered ways of tapping into it's energy and manipulating it.
 
  • #131
Frequent error is to have an error related to "magnet shielding" using diamagnetic material.

Normally, It is considered that diamagnetic "shields" (lowered) the magnetic field through it but really generates an opposite magnetic field that not only covered the space through it else modify the surronding space like a normal magnet.
 
  • #132
jammieg said:
The universe is in itself a perpetual motion machine, I'll bet with many more undiscovered ways of tapping into it's energy and manipulating it.

Exactly, PMMs are all around us; the Water cycle, the CO2/ Oxygen cycle, the Nitrogen cycle, all cycles that should go on as long as the Earth exists.

I know about the magnet things, they really arent that important, it would just act in making the building of it easyer, also, some people i have talked to have givin me the idea that it would make my PMM run more efficiently, so ill use what i have. (whitch at the moment is nothing lol)

Adam
 
  • #133
reply to vern on other post (its linked to here);

Vern said:
Ok; let me guess.

We take an electric motor, connect it to an electrical generator, connect the output of the generator to a step-up voltage transformer with a low voltage tap connected to the motor. The low voltage tap is designed to be the correct voltage for the motor. Then we take the high voltage output of the step-up transformer and power the world with it.

This one comes from folks who learn a little something about voltage transformers but don't understand how power works. It is very common; there's even a patent on it; it doesn't work, of course.

Vern

lol dude i didnt even know what a step-up voltage transformer was untuil you just mentioned it, why doesn't it work? can electricity not be divided that way or somthing, but anyway no that's not it, not close even, hav u red the post?

Adam
 
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