# Zero-point volume singularities

1. Jul 19, 2004

### taylordnz

i have found no solid proof of black holes having zero point volume and is widly accepted but ive found no proof?

could someone give me some?

2. Jul 21, 2004

### mathman

There is no proof. General Relativity leads to this conclusion. On the other hand quantum theory says no. When trying to do both at once, the results are nonsensical. In other words, physicists do not really know what goes on inside a black hole.

3. Jul 22, 2004

### Chronos

The real universe has no respect for the 'laws' we attempt to impose upon it. Mathematical singularities are just that.. mathematical. Their physical counterparts do not exist. All objects in the physical universe have finite properties, even black holes. QLG will eventually provide the answer, imo. For now, I prefer the planck density limit to explain black hole volume [very tiny, yet finite].

4. Jul 27, 2004

### Goblin

Interesting discussion. I was doing a search on the Stephen Hawkings recent change on black hole theory and found this thread.

Its been awhile since I have read up on black holes. Can someone help get me up to speed.

The thought use to be that nothing escapes from the event horizon of a black hole. Anything that escaped would be considered information although not organized information. I assume they are not implying that the same information or matter that goes in has to be the same form of information comming out. The term "information" means anything, particles, electrons etc.

So now they are using the unceratainty principle to show that it is possible for something to escape the event horizon even if it is less than protons width outside of the event horizon?

I guess I don't understand what the criteria is. How far outside of the event horizon must the information travel?

I always thought of a black hole not as a singularity but a sphere of great density, basically a bunch of protons. electrons with zero space between them. The sphere would still have a radius vs a infinetly small point. But take the math to the limits and presto you get singularities in theory.

Are they saying black holes are a large dense ball of matter that has quantum fluctuations at the surface and by the uncertainty priciple an occassional electron or some form of information escapes for a brief moment over a very short distance? Or are they saying it can propagate through space away from the black hole?

Another question: When mathmatics predicts singularities are they tossing aside the real possibliltiy that there might be a finite amount of compression obtainable. Meaning no matter how large the force you can't compress particles any closer together, thus the size of the black holes physical surface just gets larger and in turn the event horizons diameter increases vs a singluarity with a increasing event horizon diameter as more and more matter gets sucked in.

Thanks for any information you can lend.

5. Jul 28, 2004

### LURCH

We have often discussed in these forums whether or not singularities can really be formed. I have always maintained that they cannot because of time dilation. The final moment of collapse, in which the central mass of the black hole goes from some very small size to no size at all, should take an infinite amount of time, and therefore never actually be completed.