Why do people cling so tightly to racism?

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The discussion centers on the motivations behind individuals who attempt to scientifically justify racism. Key points include the psychological need for some to reconcile lifelong beliefs, alleviate guilt, and bolster self-esteem through a perceived racial superiority. Participants express skepticism about the validity of studies that support racist ideologies, arguing that such research often lacks rigorous testing and is driven by an agenda rather than objective inquiry. Concerns are raised about the reliability of data and the biases of researchers, suggesting that many studies are funded by those with a vested interest in promoting racial propaganda. The conversation also touches on the broader implications of attributing socio-economic disparities to race versus considering factors like poverty and education. Overall, the dialogue critiques the misuse of scientific claims to perpetuate racism and emphasizes the need for critical evaluation of research methodologies and motives.
  • #121
Originally posted by Zero
Adam, why is it that your perception of Eugenics isn't labeled as such in most of the writings I've seen? What you are talking about is something completely different from what we have seen is the more common usage, even if yours is technically correct. I understand you wanting to remove yourself from the racist elements, and I think you have done so pretty well.

1) I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but in those I have read, I've seen no racism at all. I have, however, seen a lot of people making assumptions about other users.

2) I really don't care about common use.
 
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  • #122


Originally posted by Evo

So it sounds like you are not for eugenics, you are for genetic engineering to help wipe out disease?
Perhaps. I generally prefer to view ideas such as Eugenics as less malicious, however. I don't believe that Galton chap, or whatever his name was, intended the forced sterilisation of those deemed unfit by the Party.
 
  • #123
russ_waters

I am all for genetic engineering, I think the positive results can be very beneficial. Which is why I am all for stem cell research. I am against eugenics, the two are not the same.
Yeah, I seem to be missing this one too, Evo. Adam, care to clarify? You say you are for eugenics, but what you describe sounds like genetic engineering. Not the same thing.
I'm against what is commonly referred to as Eugenics. However, it seems most people have an odd idea about what Eugenics is. I don't believe Galton intended that the idea should involved sterilisation forced on people by authorities.
 
  • #124
Eugenics by way of popular opinion

Originally posted by Adam
it seems most people have an odd idea about what Eugenics is. I don't believe Galton intended that the idea should involved sterilisation forced on people by authorities.
It seems like he might have been content, judging by his writings on the subject, to have simply given birth to the essential concept -- deliberately more socially-healthy births and deliberately less socially-unhealthy births -- and have shown it to the world, whereupon the world might then take it and adapt it to its own uses.


--
The basis of eugenics is already firmly established, namely, that the offspring of "worthy" parents are, on the whole, more highly gifted by nature with faculties that conduce to " worthiness " than the offspring of less " worthy " parents. On the other hand, forecasts in respect to particular cases may be quite wrong. They have to be based on imperfect data. It cannot be too emphatically repeated that a great deal of careful statistical work has yet to be accomplished before the science of eugenics can make large advances.

I hesitate to speculate farther. A tree will have been planted ; let it grow. Perhaps those who may thereafter feel themselves or be considered by others to be the possessors of notable eugenic qualities-let us for brevity call them 11 Eugenes "-will form their own clubs and look after their own interests. It is impossible to foresee what the state of public opinion will then be. [/color]
--
Essays in Eugenics. Local Associations for Promoting Eugenics. http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/searchImages/galton/search/books/essays-on-eugenics/pages/essays-eugenics_0113.png .




He did speculate about the use of force, but the force he speculated about was the force of social embarrassment:


--
It ought not to be difficult to arouse in the inhabitants a just pride in their own civic worthiness, analogous to the pride which a soldier feels in the good reputation of his regiment or a lad in that of his school. By this means a strong local eugenic opinion might easily be formed. It would be silently assisted by local object lessons, in which the benefits derived through following eugenic rules and the bad effects of disregarding them were plainly to be discerned.

The power of social opinion is apt to be underrated rather then overrated. Like the atmosphere which we breathe and in which we move, social opinion operates powerfully without our being conscious of its weight. [/color]
--
Essays in Eugenics. Local Associations for Promoting Eugenics. http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/searchImages/galton/search/books/essays-on-eugenics/pages/essays-eugenics_0114.png .




The introduction to the book of eugenics essays seems to be even more explicit on this point:


--
The power by which Eugenic reform must chiefly be effected, is that of Popular Opinion, which is amply strong enough for that purpose whenever it shall be, roused. Public Opinion has done as much as this on many past occasions and in various countries, of which much evidence is given in the Essay on Restrictions in Marriage. It is now ordering our acts more intimately than we are apt to suspect, because the dictates of Public Opinion become so thoroughly assimilated that they seem to be original and individual to those who are guided by them. [/color]
--
Essays in Eugenics. http://www.mugu.com/browse/galton/search/books/essays-on-eugenics/pages/essays-eugenics_0004.htm .




-Chris
 
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  • #125


Originally posted by hitssquad
It seems like he might have been content, judging by his writings on the subject, to have simply given birth to the essential concept -- deliberately more socially-healthy births and deliberately less socially-unhealthy births -- and have shown it to the world, whereupon the world might then take it and adapt it to its own uses.


--
The basis of eugenics is already firmly established, namely, that the offspring of "worthy" parents are, on the whole, more highly gifted by nature with faculties that conduce to " worthiness " than the offspring of less " worthy " parents. On the other hand, forecasts in respect to particular cases may be quite wrong. They have to be based on imperfect data. It cannot be too emphatically repeated that a great deal of careful statistical work has yet to be accomplished before the science of eugenics can make large advances.

I hesitate to speculate farther. A tree will have been planted ; let it grow. Perhaps those who may thereafter feel themselves or be considered by others to be the possessors of notable eugenic qualities-let us for brevity call them 11 Eugenes "-will form their own clubs and look after their own interests. It is impossible to foresee what the state of public opinion will then be. [/color]
--
Essays in Eugenics. Local Associations for Promoting Eugenics. http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/searchImages/galton/search/books/essays-on-eugenics/pages/essays-eugenics_0113.png .




He did speculate about the use of force, but the force he speculated about was the force of social embarrassment:


--
It ought not to be difficult to arouse in the inhabitants a just pride in their own civic worthiness, analogous to the pride which a soldier feels in the good reputation of his regiment or a lad in that of his school. By this means a strong local eugenic opinion might easily be formed. It would be silently assisted by local object lessons, in which the benefits derived through following eugenic rules and the bad effects of disregarding them were plainly to be discerned.

The power of social opinion is apt to be underrated rather then overrated. Like the atmosphere which we breathe and in which we move, social opinion operates powerfully without our being conscious of its weight. [/color]
--
Essays in Eugenics. Local Associations for Promoting Eugenics. http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/searchImages/galton/search/books/essays-on-eugenics/pages/essays-eugenics_0114.png .




The introduction to the book of eugenics essays seems to be even more explicit on this point:


--
The power by which Eugenic reform must chiefly be effected, is that of Popular Opinion, which is amply strong enough for that purpose whenever it shall be, roused. Public Opinion has done as much as this on many past occasions and in various countries, of which much evidence is given in the Essay on Restrictions in Marriage. It is now ordering our acts more intimately than we are apt to suspect, because the dictates of Public Opinion become so thoroughly assimilated that they seem to be original and individual to those who are guided by them. [/color]
--
Essays in Eugenics. http://www.mugu.com/browse/galton/search/books/essays-on-eugenics/pages/essays-eugenics_0004.htm .




-Chris
This just goes to show something that has been stated before; namely, that this is not chiefly about science, but about politics. It isn't about getting scientific evidence for eugenics, but about convincing laypeople that the evidence already exists.
 
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  • #126


Originally posted by hitssquad What studies and interpretations were those?
Kuhlenbeck, H. "Central Nervous System of Vertebrates". Vol. 3, Part II, New York, NY: Arnold-Backlin-Strasse, 1973
 
  • #127
The problem with eugenics is that the "concept" of producing a superior race understandably attracts those that are fervent believers in their "cause" to attain this betterment. Unfortunately these are the people that most actively campaign for eugenics.

Obviously people will have differing ideas of what eugenics is, what is undesirable and what is justifiable in eliminating the "problem".

For example, here is an excerpt from an article on eugenics from Nachtwolf's website, an example of how a eugenics proponent justifies forced sterilization of female mental patients.

4. In the British Medical Journal (# 7108, September 6, 1997, p. 563) there's an article entitled "Thousands of women sterilized in Sweden without consent." The Swedish government is investigating why thousands of women were forcibly sterilized on eugenic grounds from the 1930s to the 1970s. There are similar allegations about forced sterlisations in Switzerland, Austria and Finland. Is this the kind of thing you support?

There's not enough information in this article to evaluate these programs. The fact that political correctness has spread to Europe--that they now say "Oh, isn't this terrible?" is irrelevant. What really matters is whether the programs were actually fair and humane. Over the years, I've tried, without much success, to get articles on eugenics programs in European countries that continued on long after WW2. There don't seem to be many articles (or at least I haven't been able to find them), and then there's the problem of having them translated. Since I know so little about these programs, I can't comment on their fairness or efficacy. Getting more information about them is important, though, because whether they were sound, misguided, or somewhere in between, surely something can be learned from their experiences.

This article conjures up horrible images: a young woman--selected for no good reason--is dragged from her home, kicking and screaming, pinned to the operating table, and sterilized. But it's really hard to imagine that such things happen in Sweden. Sweden certainly appears to be a highly civilized country. Could it be that in every imaginable respect, it's a highly civilized country, except for these isolated, totally atypical acts of barbarism? Or is it just possible there's a higher ethical principle operating here that we can see only if we probe beneath the surface?

The sad fact is that there are women in this world who are mentally incompetent (either severely retarded or mentally ill), and who are also fertile. They present a serious ethical dilemma. It's easy to condemn Sweden's actions, but it's not so easy to find alternatives that are demonstrably better.

There's a very real danger that if such women aren't sterilized, they'll get pregnant, because history has shown that there are plenty of unscrupulous men ready to take advantage of them. In mental institutions, women are sometimes impregnated ("raped" would probably be more accurate) by attendants, guards, or janitors. Then, the child is taken away from the mother (is this a good thing?) and given up for adoption. In the past, in most cases, the adoptive parents weren't informed if the biological mother was a schizophrenic who had been raped by an employee of the institution (is this fair to the adopting parents?). Most of the children born of such unions will be alright, but as a group, they are far more likely to develop psychopathologies of various sorts.

We really don't know all the details about what happened in Sweden and the other European countries mentioned in the article. I'm not arguing that these programs were faultless. I'm just saying that the issues involved are difficult and complicated. An article that reports that "thousands were sterilized without their consent" could be very misleading.

And what precisely does this phrase "without their consent" mean when talking about mentally incompetent people? By definition, mentally incompetent people cannot make decisions on their own. So what if they did give their consent? What would such consent mean, if they don't understand what they're consenting to? Maybe, just maybe, the authorities in Sweden realized they'd have decide for the women--they didn't bother to ask their permission, because they knew that to do so would be meaningless. I suppose one could try to explain to the women how babies are made, and why it might be better if they didn't have one, and then say "So, do we have your permission to be sterilized now?" But the whole thing could only be a charade as long as they didn't fully comprehend what was being said.

Pregnancy and childbirth, in and of themselves, are not terrific experiences! They involve nausea, depression, mood swings, bladder problems, severe discomfort towards the end (just from being so fat), and hemorrhoids, to say nothing of the pain. This is self-evident to the women who have undergone it. To attempt to prove it seem kind of silly, but I suppose we could do a survey asking a random sample of women with children, How much fun was your last pregnancy and birth, on a scale of 1 to 10? Few women would argue that pregnancy and childbirth are fun. Surrogate mothers are paid considerable sums to undergo it for infertile couples, presumably because there arent lots of women volunteering to do it for free. So I think its a safe assumption pregnancy and childbirth are not inherently highly- rewarding experiences, except perhaps as they are a patrt of the process of producing a child to love.

Theyre something to be endured as a means to an end. But if a woman goes through 9 months of it, has a baby, and then is told, "Sorry, we have to take your baby away from you for its own protection," and the mother never sees her baby again, this is a very sad story! It's a wrenching experience, and it is arguably far worse than having a simple operation to prevent pregnancy in the first place, one which many thousands of women opt for every year when they don't want more children.

Lets be clear about this. By sterilizing mentally incompetent women, were not depriving them of the experience of MOTHERHOOD -- they are already denied that by the fact that they would be totally unfit mothers. Rather, were depriving them of the dubious priviledgeprivilege of PREGNANCY and CHILDBIRTH, which, as the majority of women would attest, is doing them a favor. In addition, were sparing them the profoundly painful experience of having their baby taken away from them at birth, never to be seen again.

So we have 2 choices here: either these women can be sterilized, or they risk having children for whom they cannot care, who will be forcibly taken from them, without their consent! The children will also have a substantially increased chance of developing mental problems. I believe the former is the more humane, and the more ethical, all things considered. (The fertility of mentally incompetent men is not as big a problem because severely retarded or insane men generally have a very hard time finding women to have sex with.)

It looks like we are going to HAVE to FORCE them to do something -- either to be sterilized, or to take their babies away from them at birth. Either that, or the babies can be brought up in an insane asylum. I think the former is much more kind. There's no getting around this choice, pretending it doesn't exist. What do you think?
The question remains, who will make this decision? Since the government seems to screw up nearly everything it gets its hands on, the decision should be made by the parents or closest relative. If there is none, perhaps by the institution. This needs to be worked out.

Society can and does make decisions for mentally incompetent people all the time--for example, to institutionalize them. To allow them total "freedom" means to abandon them. It means allowing them to wander the streets mumbling to themselves, hovering in doorways, easy prey for criminals, and likely doing harm to themselves or others. In my opinion, it's in their best interest, and in the best interest of any future children they may bear, and society at large, if these people do not procreate.
 
  • #128
wow, i missed this one! without reading all the pages, i think people cling to racism because of what they are taught...anyone ever watch the chappelle show on the comedy channel? i am not sure if poking fun at other races is funny or breeding it even worse...

i think racism also goes beyond color, but it also incorporates gender, age, and wealth...
 
  • #129


Originally posted by hitssquad
He did speculate about the use of force, but the force he speculated about was the force of social embarrassment:
--
It ought not to be difficult to arouse in the inhabitants a just pride in their own civic worthiness, analogous to the pride which a soldier feels in the good reputation of his regiment or a lad in that of his school. By this means a strong local eugenic opinion might easily be formed. It would be silently assisted by local object lessons, in which the benefits derived through following eugenic rules and the bad effects of disregarding them were plainly to be discerned.

The power of social opinion is apt to be underrated rather then overrated. Like the atmosphere which we breathe and in which we move, social opinion operates powerfully without our being conscious of its weight[/b}. [/color]
--
Essays in Eugenics. Local Associations for Promoting Eugenics. http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/searchImages/galton/search/books/essays-on-eugenics/pages/essays-eugenics_0114.png .
Yikes, that's not social embarrassment, it's propaganda. This is how Hitler brainwashed a nation.

The introduction to the book of eugenics essays seems to be even more explicit on this point:
---
The power by which Eugenic reform must chiefly be effected, is that of Popular Opinion, which is amply strong enough for that purpose whenever it shall be, roused. Public Opinion has done as much as this on many past occasions and in various countries, of which much evidence is given in the Essay on Restrictions in Marriage. It is now ordering our acts more intimately than we are apt to suspect, because the dictates of Public Opinion become so thoroughly assimilated that they seem to be original and individual to those who are guided by them. [/color]
--
Essays in Eugenics. http://www.mugu.com/browse/galton/search/books/essays-on-eugenics/pages/essays-eugenics_0004.htm
Wow, thanks for posting this Chris. This is pretty scary considering that the "public opinion" that could be implanted would be that forced sterilization is ok. As frightening is what "opinion" is being implanted as to who or what is undesirable.

I didn't realize that the eugenics movement was undertaking organized efforts to sway public opinion in this fashion.
 
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  • #130
Originally posted by Kerrie
wow, i missed this one! without reading all the pages, i think people cling to racism because of what they are taught...anyone ever watch the chappelle show on the comedy channel? i am not sure if poking fun at other races is funny or breeding it even worse...

i think racism also goes beyond color, but it also incorporates gender, age, and wealth...
Hi Kerrie, thanks for joining us. One of the things that we've noticed so far in this thread is the pseudoscience of racism is teaching people that racism is not only acceptable, but also desireable. Any comments?
 
  • #131
Racism? Doesn't exist. There are only people with less confidence who need to feel superior over others to self actualize. These are usually very small people. I have never seen where it was not. This may be propagated in many forms, but it is all the same. There are deviations in the evolution of certain races of human beings, more blood vessels in the lungs for some who live in mountainous areas, etc... In the end when it comes to the nature of what pure intelligence is, we are all the same. Do any of you percieve to smarter than what may be qualified as a retarded individual? Careful your declaration of your unconscious expression is already used up so please don't wave another banner. I sincerely doubt any of you will ever understand this post. It would require using what you post you have, but not yet used.
 
  • #132
Actually, TENYEARS, that is the first of your posts that I have ever understood. :wink:
 
  • #133
Originally posted by Adam
Heck, if the most popular theory about the rise of Humans is true, and we all came from Africa (or base stock from Africa and maybe some interbreeding with other varieties here and there), then the entire "race" section of this discussion is irrelevant anyway. So we can forget about that and concentrate on more important things, like actual problems, such as the disease I mentioned earlier.
I didn't see this post earlier.

Adam, you've put your finger on it.

'Race', as used by Lynn, Nachtwolf, hitssquad (?), Apollo, Carlos is 'biological race'

'Race', as the 'variable' studied by Jensen et al is a social concept ('self categorisation'); it is clearly NOT, in fact, 'biological race' (hitssqquad will no doubt tell us that the connection is made through a series of correlations and handwaving).

'Race' as a word in common use carries enormous amounts of social and political baggage (particularly in the US?)

So if one wishes to do serious science in psychology, why (deliberately?) chose a term that is all but guarranteed to generate heat? Further, why conflate the social with the biological meaning?
 
  • #134
Originally posted by Zero
Hi Kerrie, thanks for joining us. One of the things that we've noticed so far in this thread is the pseudoscience of racism is teaching people that racism is not only acceptable, but also desireable. Any comments?
I see it slightly differently. I don't think all that many people are actually swayed by the pseudoscience, rather it exists mostly for people to justify their racism to themselves.
 
  • #135
What I find interesting is that so many people who are obviously racist will so vehemently deny it. They seem to truly believe that their behaviour is correct and justified by whatever reasons they cite.
 
  • #136
Russ, I agree with you that the attempts at scientific credibility are rationalization for racist belief, and not the cause of it. I doubt it has swayed anyone to become racist, but I would guess that it has absolutely cemented racism in some people to the point where nothing will convince them otherwise.

Evo, you are certainly right about people not wanting to accept the stigma of racism, while at the same time being obviously and vocally racist. For instance, those people who will post something straight out of Nazi propaganda, and yet say that there is nothing racist about it. After all, their argument seems to be, how can you be a racist when black people are so obviously inferior?
 
  • #137
Originally posted by Evo
What I find interesting is that so many people who are obviously racist will so vehemently deny it. They seem to truly believe that their behaviour is correct and justified by whatever reasons they cite.
So if they really think they are right, shouldn't they be proud of it? I've thought about that question a lot and have yet to find an answer that makes any sense.
 
  • #138
Originally posted by Kerrie
i think racism also goes beyond color, but it also incorporates gender, age, and wealth...

So there's a problem because professional sports are dominated by people between 15 and 35, and it's legal discrimination that infants are not allowed to drive, and that there is an age of consent at all?

Why not throw beauty on that list while you're at it? Beautiful people typically have an easier time in life, getting jobs and so on.

While it's easy to point at a disparity in our society, and claim that that disparity is a problem, it's not always as easy to show what the root cause of the problem.

For example, I can claim it's a problem that there is a disproportionate underrepresentation of blind people with driver's licences which indicates that the DMV discriminates against blind people. While this is obviously a straw man, it illustrates that there is a need to distinguish between reasonable and unreasonable discrimination at some level.

I'm not claiming that there is necessarily a correlation between 'race' and performance, or that such correlation, if it exists, is not purely the result of social discrimination, but if that type of correlation exists, then some level of 'racial' discrimination is reasonable.

Even if there is reasonable justification for racial discrimination, it does not demonstrate that there is not a social or political race-related problem that should be discussed or adressed.

This, of course, leads to a reason to 'cling' to racism - pragmatism. For many notions of race, it is easy to observe, and if race has reasonable performance predicting value, racial discrimination can be beneficial.

Similarly, a 'white' person in a predominantly 'black' neighborhood, a latino person in a predominantly 'asian' neighborhood or anyone else whose 'race' makes them stand out is likely to be an outsider, and will consequently receive different treatment than people who are perceived to be locals.

For things like 'police profiling' the question is usually not whether race is a factor in decisionmaking, but whether race affects decisionmaking disproportionately with its predictive value.
 
  • #139
Originally posted by russ_watters
So if they really think they are right, shouldn't they be proud of it? I've thought about that question a lot and have yet to find an answer that makes any sense.

There is a stigma associated with racism. People who are thought of as racists are liable to be ostricised and unreasonably discriminated against.
 
  • #140
Originally posted by NateTG
There is a stigma associated with racism. People who are thought of as racists are liable to be ostricised and unreasonably discriminated against.
"Unreasonably"? It depends on how much of the charge of racism is actually true, right?
 
  • #141
Originally posted by Zero
"Unreasonably"? It depends on how much of the charge of racism is actually true, right?

"Unreasonable" isn't really sufficiently clear in my post. The problem is that the impact of, for example, doing business with someone who is 'racist' can be extremely costly.

That said, the accuracy of the lable isn't exactly that great either. People can't agree on what race means, so how can they agree about who's racist?

Whether the discrimination is unreasonable in that sense has more to do with how reliable the lable is in general, than whether it applies in particular case.

Of course, racist also means different things to different people. For example, from what I know about him, it would not be unreasonable to describe Louis Farrakhan as racist. Farrakhan is working for the advancement of 'black' people - an intrinsically racist agenda.

If the owner of a chinese restaurant preferentially hires 'asian' waiters and waitresses, does that make him racist?

If I notice the way people look, dress, and speak, and that affects the way that I interact with them, does that make me racist?
 
  • #142
While your examples of possible racism are interesting to discuss, they don't have the clear-cut power of a statement like "black people are inferior, and we should reduce their reproduction." When someone makes that statement, do you consider that to be racist or not? Often times there are grey areas, Nate, we both agree on that. Sometimes, though, people's statements leave little room for doubt.
 
  • #143
Originally posted by NateTG
If the owner of a chinese restaurant preferentially hires 'asian' waiters and waitresses, does that make him racist?
If he was doing it because he considered qualities of his race to be superior to others, yes.

If I notice the way people look, dress, and speak, and that affects the way that I interact with them, does that make me racist?
No, that would make you prejudiced.
 
  • #144
Nate wrote: If the owner of a chinese restaurant preferentially hires 'asian' waiters and waitresses, does that make him racist?
IMHO, it usually has more to do with the ability to speak (and read, and write) Mandarin or Cantonese (or, more often, both). ABCs who can't won't get such jobs; 'dabizi' who can probably would (tho' why they'd be looking for such a low paid job is a different question). And it's not just Chinese restaurants, but Korean, Thai, Greek, Italian, ...

Of course, if you're a western-looking young person, who speaks fluent Shanghai-nese, you could probably get a good job as a waitress/waiter in a prestigious restaurant on the Bund in Shanghai ... doesn't pay any better tho'
 
  • #145
Originally posted by Nereid
Of course, if you're a western-looking young person, who speaks fluent Shanghai-nese, you could probably get a good job as a waitress/waiter in a prestigious restaurant on the Bund in Shanghai ... doesn't pay any better tho'

Of course, the cost of living is probably a bit lower there.

I don't actually know about chinese restaurants, but I had a friend in college who spoke Japanese, and a number of the local japanese restaurants had Korean waiters. They may also have had Korean kitchen staff so that might make sense.

PS.
ABC=American Born Chinese, right?
 
  • #146
Originally posted by Evo
If he was doing it because he considered qualities of his race to be superior to others, yes.

What if his goal was to further the economic advancement of chinese people in the US?

Originally posted by Evo
No, that would make you prejudiced.

That wasn't exactly a fair post, but I would probably not consider it prejudicial to respond to a person in the language that they spoke.
I bet you deal with cops differently because they wear certain clothing. Do you consider that prejudicial?
 
  • #147
Australian Born Chinese, Austrian Born Chinese, who knows, maybe even Antiguan Born Chinese! :wink:
Nate wrote: Of course, the cost of living is probably a bit lower there.
Surely. However, relatively speaking, you may be better off (in terms of local living) being a waitress in a posh Shanghai restaurant than a waiter at your local Chinese takeaway.

IMHO, it's got much more to do with what the customers expect ... if you're a native of Shandong and have a choice of several good eateries, you'll tend to go to the one where you can speak with someone in your home province dialect. Not to mention that some folk are quite fussy about their cuisine - if their favourite Cantonese delicacies aren't on the menu, well ...

So, if you own such an eatery, you have to be quite astute in business to be successful; you know, good marketing (nothing beats word of mouth), customer satisfaction, product management, cost control, satisfying the regulators, ...
 
  • #148
Originally posted by Zero
Hi Kerrie, thanks for joining us. One of the things that we've noticed so far in this thread is the pseudoscience of racism is teaching people that racism is not only acceptable, but also desireable. Any comments?

*please don't throw tomatoes...*

i personally think by making an issue of racism (ie certain months dedicated to a particular race, affirmative action etc) make the issue itself...my only comments and my opinion...
 
  • #149
Originally posted by Kerrie
*please don't throw tomatoes...*

i personally think by making an issue of racism (ie certain months dedicated to a particular race, affirmative action etc) make the issue itself...my only comments and my opinion...
*throws tomatoes*
 
  • #150
Although I've not checked in any detail, it would seem that, apart from Adam (and myself), most of those posting to this - and other 'race'-related threads here in Social Sciences are from/in the US.

How emotionally charged is this general topic in other countries? How many other countries conduct censuses which explicitly ask for self-identification of 'race'?

Of course it's always interesting to hear from everyone, but I'd really like to hear from those who live - or have lived - in countries other than the US.
 

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