Is now a good time to invest in solar?

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Investing in solar energy in New Jersey is currently attractive due to significant state and federal incentives, including a $1.75 per watt rebate and a 30% federal tax credit, which can cover a substantial portion of installation costs. Homeowners can also benefit from Solar Renewable Energy Certificates (SRECs), which provide additional income based on solar electricity production, currently valued at around $680 per 1,000 kWh. However, the market value of SRECs can fluctuate, and there are concerns about the long-term stability of these incentives. The payback period for solar investments is estimated to be between 5 to 10 years, depending on various factors such as system size and energy consumption. Overall, while the financial benefits are compelling, potential investors should carefully consider local regulations and market dynamics before proceeding.
  • #51
This got me curious as to how much you can sell electricity back to the utility company here in Kansas. Here's what I found:
House Bill 2844, passed in 2006, established net-metering rules for Kansas utilities. Net-metering is available for systems that generate 10kW or less. Net excess generation is credited to the customer’s next bill until the end of a 12-month billing cycle. After 12 months if you generate more than you use, you’ve just made a donation to your utility company (but it’s for a good cause since you’re using clean power). Reimbursement is however capped at 1% of the total number of kilowatt hours sold by the utility. This means that up to that 1%, customers are credited at the retail rate for the power they generate. Beyond the 1% cap, the utility reimburses customers at 150% of the wholesale rate.
http://www.solarpowerrocks.com/kansas/"
 
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  • #52
Artman said:
...the efficiency approaches 100% of rated capacity on a very sunny day, placing it well over many forms of power plant electrical production efficiencies
Not sure what you mean by that - all types of power plants can produce their rated capacity, that's why they call it "rated capacity".
And the panels will continue to create electricity from sunlight for the next 20-40 years with only some additional maintenance to the inverter.
Of course (assuming the panels don't degrade), but at what cost? These vast subsidies make it viable for an individual to do, but for the economy as a whole, it's a huge loser. It's one of those things that works only as long as almost no one takes advantage of it, akin to the idea that "if everyone got phd's, who would pick up trash?"
Russ, as far as I know, I can sell the excess kwh for what I buy it for in NJ up to 5% overproduction.
Just to clarify, you can sell it for the "all-up" cost of $.15-$.17? Or for the generation portion of the electrical cost (typically half to a third of the cost). Ie, a good fraction of an electric bill is paying for the maintenance of the distribution infrastructure. Since obviously you aren't building or maintaining any power lines, it wouldn't make sense to pay you to do that...though I could see lawmakers forcing the power company to pay the all-up price.

Also, I don't understand that 5% of production issue - I always thought the electric copmany was required to buy whatever you sold it. I guess that may be to prevent people from building plants just to get the subsidies, since most of the profit possibility is in the subsidies.
 
  • #53
Artman said:
...And the panels will continue to create electricity from sunlight for the next 20-40 years with only some additional maintenance to the inverter...
Is that from the panel manufacturer? Off the top of my head 20 years out I believe silicon PV panels degrade to something like 80% of rated.

Edit: yeah, 0.71% per year.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy02osti/31455.pdf
 
  • #54
FYI, here are the rates for southeastern PA:

VARIABLE DISTRIBUTION SERVICE CHARGE:
SUMMER MONTHS. (June through September)
5.20¢ per kWh for the first 500 kWh per dwelling unit (I)
5.96¢ per kWh for additional kWh. (I)
WINTER MONTHS. (October through May)
5.20¢ per kWh (I)
COMPETITIVE TRANSITION CHARGE:
SUMMER MONTHS. (June through September)
3.42¢ per kWh for the first 500 kWh per dwelling unit
3.97¢ per kWh for additional kWh.
WINTER MONTHS. (October through May)
3.42¢ per kWh
ENERGY AND CAPACITY CHARGE
SUMMER MONTHS. (June through September)
6.10¢ per kWh for the first 500 kWh per dwelling unit
6.81¢ per kWh for additional kWh.
WINTER MONTHS. (October through May)
6.10¢ per kWh

As you can see, the actual generation of the electricity costs about 1/3 of the $.15 per kwh all-up cost (in which I didn't include the sales tax).
 
  • #55
russ_watters said:
FYI, here are the rates for southeastern PA:

VARIABLE DISTRIBUTION SERVICE CHARGE:
SUMMER MONTHS. (June through September)
5.20¢ per kWh for the first 500 kWh per dwelling unit (I)
5.96¢ per kWh for additional kWh. (I)
WINTER MONTHS. (October through May)
5.20¢ per kWh (I)
COMPETITIVE TRANSITION CHARGE:
SUMMER MONTHS. (June through September)
3.42¢ per kWh for the first 500 kWh per dwelling unit
3.97¢ per kWh for additional kWh.
WINTER MONTHS. (October through May)
3.42¢ per kWh
ENERGY AND CAPACITY CHARGE
SUMMER MONTHS. (June through September)
6.10¢ per kWh for the first 500 kWh per dwelling unit
6.81¢ per kWh for additional kWh.
WINTER MONTHS. (October through May)
6.10¢ per kWh

As you can see, the actual generation of the electricity costs about 1/3 of the $.15 per kwh all-up cost (in which I didn't include the sales tax).
3.4¢ in the Winter. That's cheap, even before taxes. I though electricity was getting expensive in Pa.
 
  • #56
mheslep said:
3.4¢ in the Winter. That's cheap, even before taxes. I though electricity was getting expensive in Pa.
You misread: It's 5.2+3.42+6.10=14.72¢

There are three separate per kwh charges to every residential electric rate:
Distribution charge (upkeep on the grid)
Transition charge (other, basically)
Energy charge (the cost to actually generate the electricity)
 
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  • #57
russ_watters said:
You misread: It's 5.4+3.42+6.10=14.92¢

There are three separate per kwh charges to every residential electric rate:
Distribution charge (upkeep on the grid)
Transition charge (other, basically)
Energy charge (the cost to actually generate the electricity)
ouch
 
  • #58
I've been trying to find in writing what NJ's policy is on the subject of overproduction. What I am finding seems that the net metering (meter that rolls forward and back) allows a customer generating system to run the meter backward during production and forward during nighttime and days when the sunshine is outrun by the house usage, at full retail rates. The net difference can be carried from month to month, like "rollover minutes." I haven't been able to find if they are carried from year to year, but that may be the case. Any credit is in the form of just that, basically saving for a rainy day.

Net metering helps customers make the most of their renewable energy investments. It enables customers to obtain full retail credits on their utility bill for each kWh of electricity their renewable system produces, in excess of the amount of electricity used over the course of a year.

When a customer's renewable energy system produces more electricity than the customer actually uses, the customer will be compensated with credits at the full retail value of the electricity for the production over and above what they use.
http://www.njcleanenergy.com/renewable-energy/programs/net-metering-and-interconnection"
 
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  • #59
russ_watters said:
Not sure what you mean by that - all types of power plants can produce their rated capacity, that's why they call it "rated capacity".
There are efficiency losses due to the inverter that place the production on an average day at about 80% of the panel's rating. On a sunny day with snow on the ground in front of the panels for instance, the output of the inverter after efficiency loss might equal the panel nominal rating (220 watt panel might produce 225 or 230 watts).

russ_watters said:
Of course (assuming the panels don't degrade), but at what cost?
They do degrade. The process is destructive to the panels. We were told there are BP panels that have been in operation nearly 40 years.

russ_watters said:
These vast subsidies make it viable for an individual to do, but for the economy as a whole, it's a huge loser. It's one of those things that works only as long as almost no one takes advantage of it, akin to the idea that "if everyone got phd's, who would pick up trash?"
True enough, but there is little fear of that. These systems are not for everyone. They require a lot of space on the ground or a roof, the initial money outlay to install the system is high for an average homeowner. Fossil fuel subsidies way outrace solar incentives.

More than $54 billion of that was in the form of 23 different tax credits for oil, coal and natural gas producers, including those overseas, most of which are permanent provisions of the U.S. Tax Code. Just $18.3 billion was grants and other direct cash for research and development and other pursuits, such as the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.

Renewables such as wind, solar and hydropower received nearly $29 billion in all, much of it also in the form of tax credits although, in this case, credits that expire after set durations. And more than half of the renewable subsidy—$16.8 billion—went to the production of ethanol from corn, a controversial biofuel that can cut into food supplies and has significant environmental consequences, including greenhouse gas emissions and expanded dead zones from fertilizer runoff.

"The vast majority of federal subsidies for fossil fuels and renewable energy supported energy sources that emit high levels of greenhouse gases when used as fuel," the report's authors write. "These figures raise the pressing question of whether scarce government funds might be better allocated to move the United States toward a low-carbon economy."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=how-much-in-subsidies-do-fossil-fue-2009-09-18"
 
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  • #60
I concur with Russwatters comments above...

Actually, each year it will reduce greenhouse gases equivalent to those generated running a car for 19,000 miles, the efficiency approaches 100% of rated capacity on a very sunny day, placing it well over many forms of power plant electrical production efficiencies And the panels will continue to create electricity from sunlight for the next 20-40 years with only some additional maintenance to the inverter.

This is totally irrelevant as Russwatters has pointed out. If I have a system that is 100% efficient and costs a million dollars to produce a KWH, it's irrelevant how "efficient" it is. If you look up the efficiency of silicon solar cells, you'll find that are about 30-35% efficient...see the chart at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell#Solar_cell_efficiency_factors
.but this has nothing to do with economics.

No matter how you slice it investing about $8400 to produce a kwh of electricity part time (when there is sun) cannot in any way compete economically with a large power plant...and no one knows the environmental damage,if any, associated with the production of silicon based products...and all the other components of a solar system//////silicon is NOT lying around on the surface to be scooped up.

As a use of stimulus money, it begins by putting the money in the hands of those who will use it,

By this logic, we could also give $100 to every street alcoholic in the country...they,too, would "use it"...

I spent some years doing economic studies for projects at AT&T and I guarantee home solar power, on an economic basis, would have been laughed right out of consideration. The real issue here is that the tax money that goes to support this uneconomic investment. If everybody did this we'd go bankrupt...

Artman, my comments are an idictment on a policy and governmental level, not directed at you. I AM installing energy efficient windows and WILL be taking advantage of the 30% tax credit for those; so we all get wrapped up in bad government policies...
 
  • #61
Naty1 said:
If you look up the efficiency of silicon solar cells, you'll find that are about 30-35% efficient...see the chart at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell#Solar_cell_efficiency_factors
.but this has nothing to do with economics.
No the type of solar crystal silicon, single band (single junction) PV for use in the majority of residential rooftops are ~17-20% efficient, with the higher end ones hitting 22%. Multiband, very expensive solar PV like that use on space vehicles can hit ~40%.

No matter how you slice it investing about $8400 to produce a kwh of electricity part time (when there is sun) cannot in any way compete economically with a large power plant...
The $8400 was the govt rebate for six New Jersey SRECS. The interesting question here is when solar might compete with larger power plants.

and no one knows the environmental damage,if any, associated with the production of silicon based products...and all the other components of a solar system
Of course they do, but whatever the environmental impact obviously there's no comparison to damage done by a coal plant.

//////silicon is NOT lying around on the surface to be scooped up.
The source material, SiO2, largely is. Making Si from SiO2 is energy intensive. An interesting point is that it requires about two years of energy production from the panel for it to produce the energy used in making the it. Of course that number used to be six years, then four ...
 
  • #62
Naty1 said:
Artman, my comments are an idictment on a policy and governmental level, not directed at you. I AM installing energy efficient windows and WILL be taking advantage of the 30% tax credit for those; so we all get wrapped up in bad government policies...

No problem Naty1. I know the economics of solar electricity means it has to be subsidized to be feasible at this point in time. That's why I did it now, lot's of incentives. I still say that as a use of economic stimulus money it is a wise use as are incentives for insulated windows, and other energy saving device incentives. There is at least some benefit to the populace, be it marginal, from decreasing carbon footprint, decreasing dependence on foreign oil, and getting money back into the economy.

As far as giving $100 to every street alcoholic in the country, I see no benefit to the general populace from that and I struggle to see how giving stimulus money to wall street benefits the general populace as these people are extremely adept at manipulating the financial world to their own advantage, which is IMO what got us here in the first place.
 
  • #63
Artman said:
No problem Naty1. I know the economics of solar electricity means it has to be subsidized to be feasible at this point in time. That's why I did it now, lot's of incentives. I still say that as a use of economic stimulus money it is a wise use as are incentives for insulated windows, and other energy saving device incentives. There is at least some benefit to the populace, be it marginal, from decreasing carbon footprint, decreasing dependence on foreign oil, and getting money back into the economy.

As far as giving $100 to every street alcoholic in the country, I see no benefit to the general populace from that and I struggle to see how giving stimulus money to wall street benefits the general populace as these people are extremely adept at manipulating the financial world to their own advantage, which is IMO what got us here in the first place.

As an ardent supporter of solar energy, I kneel before you, and bow in awe.

ps. My 1981 Kyocera panels are still operating at 100% rated capacity. Trust in quality, not statistics from the 1950's.
 
  • #64
My 1981 Kyocera panels are still operating at 100% rated capacity.
Good to know. Thanks.
 
  • #65
OmCheeto said:
ps. My 1981 Kyocera panels are still operating at 100% rated capacity. Trust in quality, not statistics from the 1950's.
Yep, trust in quality. Let's also trust in physics. How do you know the panels are still 100%? Have they been in daily use since 1981?
 
  • #66
mheslep said:
Yep, trust in quality. Let's also trust in physics. How do you know the panels are still 100%? Have they been in daily use since 1981?
There are monitors and meter readings that will give this information. My real time monitor said my system produced 52 kwh yesterday (brilliantly sunny and snow on the ground). At one point in time, after the inverter it was producing 8650 out of 8800 nominal rating for the panels. That is 98% after inverter efficiency losses, which means the panels had to be producing above their rating.
 
  • #67
mheslep said:
Yep, trust in quality. Let's also trust in physics. How do you know the panels are still 100%? Have they been in daily use since 1981?

Ah! I need new glasses. They are labeled 1991, 1992, 1993. Stupid fat font...

I actually never saw them installed for their first 16 years. They belonged to my father, who lived half way between Flagstaff and Phoenix Arizona. He lived off the grid for much of that time. Looking at the solar flux maps, I'd say it was a good test of their durability.

You would have to ask me about their efficiency on a Tuesday in the dead of winter...
But I'm fairly certain that they were supplying full rated amperage when I did my "replace the alternator" experiment.

Let's look at a couple of examples from the net:
Kyoncera_LA36151_5p5_yr.jpg

Looks pretty bad after only 5.5 years.
Though as the author says, the panels were run at 220% of their rated temperature, which according to the following, cuts their output significantly:

solar-panel-power-temperature-relationship.gif

x axis is 'C, y-axis is watts, ignore T < 30'C per the author.

Hmmm... Interpolating the two graphs, it appears the panel was actually operating at 98.5% of it's rated capacity after 5.5 years. Not bad.

But I'll get back to you in August when the sun comes out again with proper documented values for my 4 panels.
 
  • #68
Artman said:
There are monitors and meter readings that will give this information. My real time monitor said my system produced 52 kwh yesterday (brilliantly sunny and snow on the ground). At one point in time, after the inverter it was producing 8650 out of 8800 nominal rating for the panels. That is 98% after inverter efficiency losses, which means the panels had to be producing above their rating.
Sounds like the mfn (BP?) is derating the panel a little. You mentioned up thread it was a 220W?
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/solar/bp_solar_usa/STAGING/local_assets/downloads_pdfs/pq/BP3220N_lowres.pdf
The data sheet lists 220W as rated for 1000W/M^2; obviously you are not getting 1000W/M^2 solar irradiance in NJ on Feb 8 at low elevation.
The BP 220 is a 1.68M^2 panel, including frame.

more later...
 
  • #69
will solar panel reflection cause glare problems for pilots? just curious. thanks.
 
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  • #70
I have often wondered that. I live basicly right under final approach for Bush. They fly over all day and night, pretty high up. With my luck, they'd create a new law limiting panels right after I dropped the $$$


dr
 
  • #71
I haven't looked too closely at a solar panel, but I'd think they'd be coated to reduce glare. After all - if they are reflecting light, it isn't being absorbed and converted to electricity!
 
  • #72
russ_watters said:
I haven't looked too closely at a solar panel, but I'd think they'd be coated to reduce glare. After all - if they are reflecting light, it isn't being absorbed and converted to electricity!
The surface is low iron "solar" glass material over the bluish-black PV cells. Not much glare.

mheslep, mine are Schott Poly 220 panels.

http://www.schottsolar.com/us/products/photovoltaics/schott-poly/"
 
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  • #73
Just saw my monitor show me 8.811 kw output after the inverter. That's over 100% of the panel nominal capacity of 8.8 kw. Not too shabby. :approve:

I wonder if studies have been done on the effects of snow reflectance on solar panel output? The ground is covered with snow, the panels are in cool ambient air and under very clear sunny skies. I really think the snow must help.
 
  • #74
Clear day solar insolation on a perpendicular ground surface is http://edmall.gsfc.nasa.gov/inv99Project.Site/Pages/science-briefs/ed-stickler/ed-irradiance.html" .

For NJ at Noon in Feb,
cos(zenith) = sin(φ)*sin(δ)+cos(φ)cos(δ) = 0.61,
where δ=solar declination (Feb) ~ -10 deg, φ=latitude = ~40.3 deg.
Note for June 21 with δ=+23.5, cos(zenith) = 0.96 at Noon.

So received peak power in Feb for a panel facing South at latitude should be ~610W/m^2.

Given 40 panels at 1.67 M^2, total received power by the surface of the array is 41.1
kW. If measured power today was 8811 Watts, then the conversion efficiency of the panels, assuming 94% efficiency for the inverter, is
eff = 8811W / (1.67M^2 * 40 panels * 610W / M^2 * 0.94) = 20.3 %. That's extremely high for a polycrystalline panel.

In June output power after the inverter should hit 12.2kW
 
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  • #75
From Monday's MIT TR:

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/24498/?a=f
According to Harry Fleming, the CEO of Acro Energy Technologies in Oakdale, CA, these changes mean that the cost of a typical five-kilowatt rooftop solar system has dropped from $22,000 after state incentives are applied ($40,000 without them) to $16,000 in the last 18 months. Prices are expected to fall to $13,000 by the end of the year ($25,000 without incentives). "This is going to make solar a middle-class product," he says.

Scaling their 5kW typical system to Artman's 8.8kW system gives
with (without state incentives)
$39k ($70k without) - more than 18 months ago [in the ballpark with https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2565045&postcount=41"]
$29k ($51k without) - last 18 months,
$23k ($44k without) - end of 2010.

a 40% price drop, giving $2.6 per Watt-peak for a theoretical 2011 residential system.
 
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  • #76
mheslep said:
Clear day solar insolation on a perpendicular ground surface is http://edmall.gsfc.nasa.gov/inv99Project.Site/Pages/science-briefs/ed-stickler/ed-irradiance.html" .

For NJ at Noon in Feb,
cos(zenith) = sin(φ)*sin(δ)+cos(φ)cos(δ) = 0.61,
where δ=solar declination (Feb) ~ -10 deg, φ=latitude = ~40.3 deg.
Note for June 21 with δ=+23.5, cos(zenith) = 0.96 at Noon.

So received peak power in Feb for a panel facing South at latitude should be ~610W/m^2.

Given 40 panels at 1.67 M^2, total received power by the surface of the array is 41.1
kW. If measured power today was 8811 Watts, then the conversion efficiency of the panels, assuming 94% efficiency for the inverter, is
eff = 8811W / (1.67M^2 * 40 panels * 610W / M^2 * 0.94) = 20.3 %. That's extremely high for a polycrystalline panel.

In June output power after the inverter should hit 12.2kW

Thanks for working that out for me (math is not my strong suit). :cool:
 
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  • #77
OmCheeto said:
(Does this mean over the following ~34 year lifespan of the system, Artman will make $241,026? Hmmm... Even without the SREC's that's $71,026. Wow. Seems the answer to the original question is: not only yes, but ...)

I was told as part of the sales pitch (so take it for what that's worth) that solar electric generation systems purchased with the current level of incentives will payback $3 for every $1 spent over about 25 years given escalation rates of electricity and expected rise and eventual fall of SREC values. Of course this is just speculation, much of it hinges on the weather. So far it has been the snowiest winter on record where I am. This means lots of cloudy days. Fortunately we have had a few sun on snow days to go with them and the output goes way up then.
 
  • #78
Artman said:
I was told as part of the sales pitch (so take it for what that's worth) that solar electric generation systems purchased with the current level of incentives will payback $3 for every $1 spent over about 25 years given escalation rates of electricity and expected rise and eventual fall of SREC values. Of course this is just speculation, much of it hinges on the weather. So far it has been the snowiest winter on record where I am. This means lots of cloudy days. Fortunately we have had a few sun on snow days to go with them and the output goes way up then.

I'm very interested in your system voltage vs. temperature. I learned yesterday that most solar panel manufacturer's under-rate their panels, knowing that they have a certain degradation over time. (I'm still trying to figure out how to gracefully retract my "100%" claim from the other day)

I have to admit that I've learned more about solar panels in the last two weeks than I have in the last 4 year. It's easy to ignore the scientific facts when these little buggers appear to be the ultimate "Energizer Bunnys".

But mheslep and I both posted graphs that indicate that ratings on the panels start at 25'C and voltage output degrades as temperatures go up. So my questions are: Do the graphs continue linearly in the opposite direction? Does a panel operating at 0'C give a 6 to 7 % increase in power output? Was it the solar reflection from the snow, or the temperature that are giving you increased power output? Or was it both?
 
  • #79
OmCheeto said:
I'm very interested in your system voltage vs. temperature. I learned yesterday that most solar panel manufacturer's under-rate their panels, knowing that they have a certain degradation over time. (I'm still trying to figure out how to gracefully retract my "100%" claim from the other day)

I have to admit that I've learned more about solar panels in the last two weeks than I have in the last 4 year. It's easy to ignore the scientific facts when these little buggers appear to be the ultimate "Energizer Bunnys".

But mheslep and I both posted graphs that indicate that ratings on the panels start at 25'C and voltage output degrades as temperatures go up. So my questions are: Do the graphs continue linearly in the opposite direction? Does a panel operating at 0'C give a 6 to 7 % increase in power output? Was it the solar reflection from the snow, or the temperature that are giving you increased power output? Or was it both?
I understand both low temperatures and reflectance can add to performance. I was told that my ground mount system will perform better than a roof mounted system (everything else being equal) because it will be better arranged for air movement to transfer heat away from the panels, since the backs are wide open on a metal rack angled 40 deg up to 12' in the air at the high end from 3' above the ground in the front. Where roof mounted panels lying flat on racks against the angle of the roof tend to gain heat from attic spaces and trap heat between the panels and the roof, driving down performance.
 
  • #80
OmCheeto said:
I'm very interested in your system voltage vs. temperature. I learned yesterday that most solar panel manufacturer's under-rate their panels, knowing that they have a certain degradation over time...
That's not quite right. Manufacturers rate their panels according to a set 3rd party standard. Like any other device, mechanical or electrical, performance will vary based on test conditions, so *someone* has to decide on a standard set of conditions unless the industry is to be a free-for-all. The rating point is then based on a set of conditions near the top of what is likely to be seen, but there is no such thing as perfect conditions, so there is no real set maximum.

Here's an article about the Standard Test Conditions for rating panels (on which, Artman's panel's 220W nominal rating is based).
1.Irradiance (sunlight intensity or power), in Watts per square meter falling on a flat surface. The measurement standard is 1 kW per sq. m. (1,000 Watts/m2)
2.Air Mass refers to “thickness” and clarity of the air through which the sunlight passes to reach the modules (sun angle affects this value). The standard is 1.5.
3.Cell temperature , which will differ from ambient air temperature. STC defines cell testing temperature as 25 degrees C.
http://www.altestore.com/howto/Electrical-Characteristics-of-Solar-Panels-PV-Modu/a87/

Because of #2, #1 seems to me that it should be the irradiance at the top of the atmosphere. The real value varies from 1.321-1.412 kW/sq m, so I would think if you mounted one of these on the top of Mt Everest, it would put out a good 285W. I'm not really sure of what #2 means in terms of real-world conditions, though.

#3 is significantly cooler than what you'll actually get in summer, so that one works against you.

...speaking of which, does anyone make a combo solar water heater and power panel? I'd think that you could collect nearly as much heat as with a regular solar water heater while also significantly improving the electrical output of the panel.
 
  • #81
russ_watters said:
...speaking of which, does anyone make a combo solar water heater and power panel? I'd think that you could collect nearly as much heat as with a regular solar water heater while also significantly improving the electrical output of the panel.
Not sure about water, but a company called Solarwall makes a combination PV panel and air preheater duct. Air is ducted behind the panels to cool them while simultaneously preheating fresh air for roof mounted Air handling units.

http://solarwall.com/en/products/solarwall-pvt/solarduct-pvt.php"
 
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  • #82
At 11:45 yesterday, sunny, clear, with snow on the ground temps in the upper 30's deg F, the system monitor showed 9.34 kw output after the inverter. Around 106% of the panels' kw rating. The inverter is only rated for 10 kw. Anyone know what happens should the panels go over that? It's beginning to look like a possibility.
 
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  • #83
Artman said:
At 11:45 yesterday, sunny, clear, with snow on the ground temps in the upper 30's deg F, the system monitor showed 9.34 kw output after the inverter. Around 106% of the panels' kw rating. The inverter is only rated for 10 kw. Anyone know what happens should the panels go over that? It's beginning to look like a possibility.
The panels will go well over that - to 12kW come a clear day in June/July. I doubt you'll have any problems with the panels themselves, but the inverter concerns me if it is indeed rated 10kW. It must have a breaker or fuse, e.g. UL safety, but it's likely have a shorter life if its run at full or over capacity all the time. Doesn't make sense that an experienced installation company would have given you an inverter underrated for the job.
 
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  • #84
mheslep said:
The panels will go well over that - to 12kW come a clear day in June/July. I doubt you'll have any problems with the panels themselves, but the inverter concerns me if it is indeed rated 10kW. It must have a breaker or fuse, e.g. UL safety, but it's likely have a shorter life if its run at full or over capacity all the time. Doesn't make sense that an experienced installation company would have given you an inverter underrated for the job.
I looked up my inverter and checked the ratings. The maximum output is 9995 watts. The maximum input current is 46.7 amps nominal input amps is 27.6 amps. I think my system is wired for 480 volts DC. 12,000 watts/480v = 25. Should be fine. I'm breathing better again.
 
  • #85
Hold on, I didn't account for the temperature coefficient before. The SCHOTT data sheet gives a -0.47% / deg C coeff, 20deg C as the rating point. Assuming your Noon temperatures lately have been 5 deg C outside, the panels would run 15*0.47%=7% better than rated. In the Summer, assuming 30 deg C on the roof, the panels would run 10*0.47=4.7% worse, an 11% decline due to temperature from now. So the peak June solstice power for the Artman array declines to ~10.7kW at 30 degC, better when the odd clear cold front comes through.
 
  • #86
Artman said:
I looked up my inverter and checked the ratings. The maximum output is 9995 watts. The maximum input current is 46.7 amps nominal input amps is 27.6 amps. I think my system is wired for 480 volts DC. 12,000 watts/480v = 25. Should be fine. I'm breathing better again.
All motors have a "service factor" of 1.15 that means the true rating is actually 15% higher than nameplate - I suspect your inverter has such a saftey-factor built into its design.
 
  • #87
russ_watters said:
All motors have a "service factor" of 1.15 that means the true rating is actually 15% higher than nameplate - I suspect your inverter has such a saftey-factor built into its design.

There's no doubt a factor of safety, but often operating a device outside of its specified range won't damage it but it may shorten its lifespan.
 
  • #88
Latest update, the Electric Company estimated our last bill so even after the solar array saved us 750 kwh we got a bill for $160.00. To be fair, there was still a foot of snow on the ground around here, so I didn't expect them to read the meter. My wife called and told them the reading I took on meter reader day and they are going to amend the bill and send out a new one. The Electric Company has been very reasonable through this whole process.

I was anxious to see the difference in the bill after nearly a month of solar power generation. It was an odd month anyway because of snow, clouds, some time left from the old meter, and a few days on the new without solar assistance.

Currently the system has generated over 900 kwh, should earn us our first SREC soon. Then we get to see how that works.
 
  • #89
good thread, suscribing.
 
  • #90
We had our first non-estimated bill this weekend. $47 and change for 281 kwh. $15 of that was distribution and connection fees. We are still ending up paying more than expected (the design was for an average bill of $11.00), but it has been unusually cloudy. The hope is that the summer months will help reduce the actual average bill to meet the design.

System has been functioning well with several sunny days just after the last meter reading. We are still waiting for the SREC number to come through. It is tied to the rebate which is tied to the home energy audit, which has to be submitted to the state still (waiting for a computer program code of some sort). The whole energy audit part of the process came as a surprise to me. I hadn't realized at first that a home energy audit was required to get the rebate and the SREC number, but it is.

More later as it happens.
 
  • #91
The meter-reader came yesterday and found the reading over 300 kwh below the previous month (good sunny month). He said "System failure." I asked him what that meant, he said it kicks out any results too far below the expected average reading. It should be interesting to see the bill. I'll post the outcome.
 
  • #92
Artman said:
The meter-reader came yesterday and found the reading over 300 kwh below the previous month (good sunny month). He said "System failure." I asked him what that meant, he said it kicks out any results too far below the expected average reading. It should be interesting to see the bill. I'll post the outcome.

On a month with a negative meter reading we got a bill for +- $2 (not sure of the exact amount, it's home, I'm not, my wife told me the total). There are a couple of charges that are based on days tied to the grid rather than kwh used. Those amounted to the +- $2 charge. I can stand that. :wink:
 
  • #93
Artman said:
On a month with a negative meter reading we got a bill for +- $2 (not sure of the exact amount, it's home, I'm not, my wife told me the total). There are a couple of charges that are based on days tied to the grid rather than kwh used. Those amounted to the +- $2 charge. I can stand that. :wink:
By this time of year the utility/panels should be paying you substantially for your excess kWh produced, I would think? No summer air conditioning running yet, and we are <60 days away from summer solstice. I would think May might be your biggest pay off month, unless you don't use air conditioning in the summer.
 
  • #94
mheslep said:
By this time of year the utility/panels should be paying you substantially for your excess kWh produced, I would think? No summer air conditioning running yet, and we are <60 days away from summer solstice. I would think May might be your biggest pay off month, unless you don't use air conditioning in the summer.
Because of the SREC program, I can only sell back a small portion of the excess at this time (about 5% I think). We had about 300 kWh under the last meter reading. We can carry it to the next month, but we won't get back any money for it.
 
  • #95
Artman said:
Because of the SREC program, I can only sell back a small portion of the excess at this time (about 5% I think). We had about 300 kWh under the last meter reading. We can carry it to the next month, but we won't get back any money for it.
So you are supplying free power to the grid?
 
  • #96
mheslep said:
So you are supplying free power to the grid?

thanks, we all appreciate that...lol

this (IMHO) is why a separate off grid system is all I would invest in. Somehow the power company still wins

Glad your system is working good, and your thread is a great source of info for all

dr
 
  • #97
dr dodge said:
thanks, we all appreciate that...lol

this (IMHO) is why a separate off grid system is all I would invest in. Somehow the power company still wins

Glad your system is working good, and your thread is a great source of info for all

dr
Thanks dr. It's doing really good. The main problem right now is that the state still hasn't issued us our SREC code and instructions yet. It is in the works. However, I still think grid tied was the way to go. Our overproduction last month was around 300 kWh.

300 kWh is 30% of 1 SREC. They are selling for about $700 in NJ right now. So a third of an SREC = $210 in NJ.

Electricity is selling for approximately $.17 right now in NJ. so 300 times .17 = $51 in NJ.

Grid tied still looks the best to me. And we carry the credit for the 300 to this month should it be cloudy.
 
  • #98
Another update. I received my SREC registration number from the NJ Board of Public Utilities. Now I can start selling SREC's. It took about 5 months for the registration to come through from the date of system activation at the end of January. From what I understand, all of the SREC's produced prior to the registration number being issued are still credited to my account and can be sold. It's produced almost 5 now, right about on schedule to make 11 by the anniversary date at the end of January.
 
  • #99
Artman - what kind of daily kWh are numbers are you producing now that we are into June?
 
  • #100
Artman said:
From what I understand, all of the SREC's produced prior to the registration number being issued are still credited to my account and can be sold.
Are the SREC's value seasonal dependent? i.e. Can you sell them back on peak times. I would guess not.
 
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