News What were the consequences of Israel's attack on the Gaza Aid Flotilla?

[arildno]

The Quran is to be learned by heart, by memorizing its intonations and exact wordings. That is not the same as developing literacy.

Only the Maltese, and West Saharans, have archaic Arab languages in which the Quran's language is familiar speech.

While I, as a Norwegian, have a hazy, intuitive semi-understanding of Old Norse, it is only Scandinavians of Icelandic or Føreyar background whose present day language is close enough to Old Norse to understand it fully, without special study.

Same with most present-day speakers of Arabic, I think, with the exception of the two groups mentioned.

 

[arildno]

In the following gloating photo series, the Turkish newspaper Hurryiet shows what happened to..Israeli soldiers on board of the Mira Marmara.
This is, incidentally, proof, that the first wave of Israeli soldiers were OVERPOWERED by the crew, and beaten up (without crowbars??)
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/g.php?p=1&g=55#gallerytop

Thus, the IDF is proven right that they did begin to shoot, on account of--self-defence against a violent mob.

Once again, accidentally, the supporters of the "peace activists" are on the wrong side of truth.

 

[arildno]

Scandinavian languages make my brain hurt.

Hurt??
Listen to our national anthem for a couple of minutes:

 

[arildno]

I wonder when the nations that condemned Israel will offer retractions? I'm guessing, never, especially from the Turks, who still need to admit that whole "Armenian Genocide" bit.

Nor have they apologized for the "Bulgarian Horrors" of 1876, the numerous massacres of Greeks in, for example, the Orlov Revolt in 1770, nor for the imposition of the child tax, devshirme, on their Christian subject population and on and on and on.

Obviously, no present living Turk is responsible for the evils of earlier times, but he is most definitely morally obliged to condemn his fore-fathers' evil conduct.

 

[estro]

In the following gloating photo series, the Turkish newspaper Hurryiet shows what happened to..Israeli soldiers on board of the Mira Marmara.
This is, incidentally, proof, that the first wave of Israeli soldiers were OVERPOWERED by the crew, and beaten up (without crowbars??)
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/g.php?p=1&g=55#gallerytop

Thus, the IDF is proven right that they did begin to shoot, on account of--self-defence against a violent mob.

Once again, accidentally, the supporters of the "peace activists" are on the wrong side of truth.

I'm AMAZED how after these picture some can still condemn Israel.
These chilling pictures made me remember the Ramallah lynching...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching

The Palestinian people (and their faith brothers) have hatred deeply rooted within their hearts. This hatred sometimes make them forget they are human beings...
And thus I think we (Israel) and our wild neighbors will never reach peace, at least as long as Muslim radicals will walk the Earth as Muslim integers.
I fear the only solution is making them imaginary...

 

[arildno]

As long as Muslim radicals will walk the Earth as Muslim integers, I fear the only solution is making them imaginary...

Do, however, remember, that Jacques Lacan has developed the insight that the imaginary unit is nothing but the "joie de vivre" displayed by the erect male member..

 

[estro]

Do, however, remember, that Jacques Lacan has developed the insight that the imaginary unit is nothing but the "joie de vivre" displayed by the erect male member..

So we should consider more radical aproach...
Or the real one?

 

[arildno]

Hmm..peaceful integration is not always possible.

Should we differentiate our approach instead?

 

[estro]

Hmm..peaceful integration is not always possible.

Should we differentiate our approach instead?

Since I always have problems with integration, differentiation seems to me as appropriate...
Now I'll try to get my way in politics and suggest the idea in our parliament...

Can you suggest a name to my new political party?

 

[arildno]

Since I always have problems with integration, differentiation seems to me as appropriate...

Yes, integration is an art, differentiation just a craft.

It will likely be one or two sharp corners/cusps we encounter, but then again, we shouldn't be so naive to think that everything will function smoothly..

 

[arildno]

Can you suggest a name to my new political party?

Heaviside, perhaps?

 

[estro]

...
It will likely be one or two sharp corners/cusps we encounter, but then again, we shouldn't be so naive to think that everything will function smoothly..

Can't we just redefine problematic points, and make them nice?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

The Quran is to be learned by heart, by memorizing its intonations and exact wordings. That is not the same as developing literacy.

Only the Maltese, and West Saharans, have archaic Arab languages in which the Quran's language is familiar speech.

While I, as a Norwegian, have a hazy, intuitive semi-understanding of Old Norse, it is only Scandinavians of Icelandic or Føreyar background whose present day language is close enough to Old Norse to understand it fully, without special study.

Same with most present-day speakers of Arabic, I think, with the exception of the two groups mentioned.

From what I've heard from people from Iran (Their Persian language differs a good deal from Arabic) they basically had to memorize the entire Qu'ran, but never learned to say "Hello" in Arabic.

 

[arildno]

Can't we just redefine problematic points, and make them nice?

By re-normalization techniques, or by the method of steepest descent?

 

[arildno]

From what I've heard from people from Iran (Their Persian language differs a good deal from Arabic) they basically had to memorize the entire Qu'ran, but never learned to say "Hello" in Arabic.

Correct.
The same is true of Pakistanis, Muslim Indonesians and so on.
I think it has a withering effect upon the brain, by having to learn what feels like complete mumbo-jumbo by heart.
And that is, perhaps, the intention, of modern day clerics?

Through that mechanism, the "Words of God" get a magical feel to them, that even if they are not understood will be taboo to criticize.

Just a speculation, that..

 

[estro]

From other thread;

Sup. I'm 17 y.o. high school student.

Although myself is only 23 years old, I think it will be wise to delay expressing your political outlook until you have a little more life experience...
Before gaining military experience (3 years) and losing friends, I had the same lovely pink glasses as you have.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

From other thread;Although myself is only 23 years old, I think it will be wise to delay expressing your political outlook until you have a little more life experience...
Before gaining military experience (3 years) and losing friends, I had the same lovely pink glasses as you have.

Sorry, but you don't know me, what experiences I have or my outlook on the world. I'm certainly not going to do any military service (I have physiological reasons, and I'm a general opposer of the military anyway). Of course my opinion will change with the years, but you have no right to accuse me of being "too young to understand", or whatever you're trying to imply.

So QUIT THE FREAKING AD HOMINEM.

 

[arildno]

So QUIT THE FREAKING AD HOMINEM.

No.

Only those who back up their statements&opinions by facts&logic are immunized from ad hominem.

Those who refuse to furnish facts, and "argue" merely from their emotions, are undeserving of immunity from ad hominem.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

While I certainly admit that I am sometimes too quick to judge, and perhaps do not always affirm the facts, your constant "You're an evil leftists and you're destroying the world" certainly isn't helping.

 

[HossamCFD]

I see that most of you guys have reached a consensus to blame the flotilla activists and, as usual, support Israel unconditionally. I have no problem with that, I just wonder if some of you would be interested in hearing the other side of the argument.

this link could be an example

 

[estro]

I see that most of you guys have reached a consensus to blame the flotilla activists and, as usual, support Israel unconditionally. I have no problem with that, I just wonder if some of you would be interested in hearing the other side of the argument.

this link could be an example

And this is the actual side of the argument...
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/g.p...=55#gallerytop


You are from Egypt right? Are you aware that Egypt had the same blockade on Gaza until yesterday?
It's laughable...

 

[OmCheeto]

While I certainly admit that I am sometimes too quick to judge, and perhaps do not always affirm the facts, your constant "You're an evil leftists and you're destroying the world" certainly isn't helping.

It's not a bad thing to be compassionate for people you think might be oppressed. It is a bad thing to ignore the facts though. And it's even worse, if you ignore the facts.*

23 May 2010. 8 days prior to the "incident".

hmmm... Where shall we let all the Israelis live then, if not in Israel? Should the US invite them all here?
I support the humanitarian efforts of this group from 50 nations, but I think that Israel would not be so brutal if the people of Gaza would simply stop lobbing mortar shells at them.

Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip have occurred since 2001. As of January 2009, over 8,600 rockets had been launched

Seems like a wars been going on for quite a while. Perhaps they should just make it official and go ahead and kill each other.

Then we'll have Salam. Until of course the Arabs and Persians start at it again.

hmmm... I wonder what Muhammad, Jesus, and Abraham would have to say about the situation.

*intended

 

[TubbaBlubba]

What are the comparative death tolls between 2001 and 2009?

 

[HossamCFD]

You are from Egypt right? Do you aware that Egypt had the same blockade on Gaza until yesterday?
It's laughable...

Yes I am well aware of it (actually it was open 3 days ago not yesterday). but may I ask why is it laughable ?! Just because I am Egyptian doesn't mean I support my government's actions all the way. seems a strange logic to you right ?! perhaps you should try to use this logic sometimes.

And by the way, what on Earth is the ACTUAL side of the argument? I mean you can believe whatever makes you happy but don't call it THE ACTUAL just because you believe in it. Doesn't seem like an objective way of debating

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Tubba, he's not saying that, he's saying that 6 years on you, and 3 of military service in the region has taught him a lesson he feels you are yet to learn. I don't see that as "you're destroying the world", but just what he said, that you still have blinders on.

That was referring to arildno. He's been making comments in the style of "Leftists like you are ruining/allowing/whatevering this and that" all over.

As for me having blinders on, that's simply due to biased interpretation of what I have said. I certainly realize that the situation is dreadfull.

Also, listening to the statement of that Turk, the flashbang might have been tossed by the IDF and then tossed back or missed. We don't know.There's also another side of it - The Mavi was the ship with the transmissioners on it, which of course Israel were intent to destroy in favour of only them being allowed to distribute information. This might be the reason the ones on board were intent on defending it, and also a motivation for the IDF to use "excessive" force.

 

[arildno]

Just because I am Egyptian doesn't mean I support my government's actions all the way.

Psst..have you heard of..Copts?

 

[estro]

Yes I am well aware of it (actually it was open 3 days ago not yesterday). but may I ask why is it laughable ?! Just because I am Egyptian doesn't mean I support my government's actions all the way. seems a strange logic to you right ?! perhaps you should try to use this logic sometimes.

And by the way, what on Earth is the ACTUAL side of the argument? I mean you can believe whatever makes you happy but don't call it THE ACTUAL just because you believe in it. Doesn't seem like an objective way of debating

ACTUAL side = videos and pictures of what ACTUALLY happened.
ACTUAL side != dramatic and fabricated lies.

And now between us, my Egyptian friend and neighbor - Do you remember the Darfur refugees, and what the Egyptian police did to them?
Why I never seen the Egyptian (or any other Nation) people rise against it?

 

[HossamCFD]

Do you remember the Darfur refugees, and what the Egyptian police did to them?
Why I never seen the Egyptian (or any other Nation) people rise against it?

I can see that this will be transformed into a debate about my nationality, anyway, no one would ever criticize the Egyptian police like the Egyptians themselves. Be my guest, say whatever you want, I won't be defending them. Actually, you would never criticize them as much as I would. We have a president that is ruling since 30 years and claiming that this is a democratic country, remember ?!. Why you never seen the Egyptian people rise against it ?! well, it's hard to see Egyptians rising against anything If the police is oppressing any demonstration that he wouldn't allow. By the way, may it be just a coincidence that our dictator president that is ruling for 30 years is the closest friend to Israel ?! just wondering

By the way, edited and incomplete videos released from only one side while eliminating the other videos doesn't seem ACTUAL to me. multiple testaments by those who witnessed the action may do.

 

[HossamCFD]

Psst..have you heard of..Copts?

And ... ? I really can't see your point, and how would it be relevant

Also, for your information (or the lack of it), copts means the Egyptians, It is wrongfully ascribed to the major sects of orthodox christians in Egypt to give the impression that the christians are the indigenous egyptians while the muslims are arab outsiders, something that is easily refuted logically and historically. I am a coptic muslim

 

[OmCheeto]

What are the comparative death tolls between 2001 and 2009?

Deaths due to Pearl Harbor attack: 2,350
Subsequent Japanese deaths: 2,700,000

Significant deaths on 28 June 1914: 1
Deaths resulting: ~80,000,000*

Sometimes it's not about the numbers.
It's about who's going to decide that the next rock/mortar/rocket/missile/nuke does not get thrown.


*argument over this number should probably take place somewhere else. I'm simply trying to make a point.

 

[estro]

...
We have a president that is ruling since 30 years and claiming that this is a democratic country, remember ?!

By the way, edited and incomplete videos released from only one side while eliminating the other videos doesn't seem ACTUAL to me. multiple testaments by those who witnessed the action may do.

Now think why Mubarak is still in power, maybe it's Israel fault?(Although we did build for you the pyramids) No I think it's Egyptians fault...

If Mubarak was Israel closest friend, I fear my nation was in real trouble...

The problem is not "edited" videos, but blind (full of hatred) minds...

 

[zomgwtf]

Deaths due to Pearl Harbor attack: 2,350
Subsequent Japanese deaths: 2,700,000

Significant deaths on 28 June 1914: 1
Deaths resulting: ~80,000,000*

Sometimes it's not about the numbers.
It's about who's going to decide that the next rock/mortar/rocket/missile/nuke does not get thrown.


*argument over this number should probably take place somewhere else. I'm simply trying to make a point.

I agree completely with this statement. The numbers mean nothing it's the intentions. Just because a nation is weaker and doesn't have a powerfull military doesn't mean that it has a right to constantly push a larger nations buttons. Eventually that nation will crack and will decide that 'that's enough' and there will be MANY people from that nation that are willing to die to protect the future of their nation to ensure that the future people never have to endure what they lived through. This is a common theme in ALL wars the only difference I can see between Israel and the other nations is that Israel is actually restraining itself rather than completely destroying and conquering the Palestinian territories.
I feel confident that if Israel had started a war to conquer Gaza there would be a lot of 'loud bickering' coming from certain communities but I highly doubt any unified international support would have been given to Gaza.

Again for those people living in developed parts of the world. Can you honestly say that you would wish your nation would be 'kind and tolerant' of a neigbour nation that acted out towards you the same way the Palestinians have? I mean it's not even JUST the Palestinians, Israel has had to deal with nearly ever Arab nation and military around it... during the Gulf war it even had Iraq BOMBING the hell out of Israel, yet Israel refused to retaliate or get involved.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Deaths due to Pearl Harbor attack: 2,350
Subsequent Japanese deaths: 2,700,000

Significant deaths on 28 June 1914: 1
Deaths resulting: ~80,000,000*

Sometimes it's not about the numbers.
It's about who's going to decide that the next rock/mortar/rocket/missile/nuke does not get thrown.*argument over this number should probably take place somewhere else. I'm simply trying to make a point.

1. The Japanese had been waging war against China for what, ten years by that point. It's just that we tend to ignore the Sino-Japanese war.
2. Franz Ferdinand's murder was not the only trigger for the great war.

So I'm sorry, but I don't follow your logic. Retaliation should always be proportional... and preferably not against civillians.I'm not saying Israel should tolerate the bombings, but I don't think that killing civilians will solve the long-term problem.

 

[arildno]

Just because I am Egyptian doesn't mean I support my government's actions all the way. seems a strange logic to you right ?!

Psst..have you heard of..Copts?

And ... ? I really can't see your point, and how would it be relevant

No, how could that possibly be related to your comment??

I am a coptic muslim

Indeed.

 

[arildno]

Retaliation should always be proportional..

No, first and foremost is that the retaliation shall be effective.

Then, among possible effective measures (of those there might be many or few), one is to choose the one causing least unnecessary damage.

You are NOT to pick an INEFFECTIVE measure just because it seems "proportional" to you.

 

[OmCheeto]

The problem is not "edited" videos, but blind (full of hatred) minds...

This is why I stopped posting on Al Jazeera-Facebook threads after the incident.

God alone could bring light into those black, ignorant, seething masses of hate filled messages.

 

[HossamCFD]

(Although we did build for you the pyramids)

I really don't know if you are serious about this or just joking. In case you are serious (which I hope not as this would be the stupidest thing I heard on PF). The pyramids were built in the Third and fourth dynasty around 2650-2575 BC and 2575-2467 BC. the jews, or else, their ancestors the Hebrews, did not even exist until centuries after that, let alone coming to Egypt.

I think some guys need to learn some history.

 

[zomgwtf]

No, first and foremost is that the retaliation shall be effective.

Then, among possible effective measures (of those there might be many or few), one is to choose the one causing least unnecessary damage.

You are NOT to pick an INEFFECTIVE measure just because it seems "proportional" to you.

Exactly, but this just isn't something you're going to convince a ideological teenager of, especially one that lives is a very nice and developed nation . Some people truly believe all the worlds problems are 'non-sense' and never require fighting... there's always 'another better route that doesn't involve deaths'. 10% of the time, this may be the case... the majority of the time though... I'm highly skeptical.

Nothing in war needs to be proportional. A MAJOR component of war theory is exactly the opposite actually, intentionally make things unproportional IN YOUR FAVOUR so you can win the damned thing. I suggest people on these forums read a few notable philosophers on war. Starting with the classics: Sun Tzu "The Art of War' and von Clausewitz "On War". You could then move into more complex theories of modern warfare after you understand the basics.

 

[zomgwtf]

I think some guys need to learn some history.

Why plural?

 

[arildno]

Nothing in war needs to be proportional. A MAJOR component of war theory is exactly the opposite actually, intentionally make things unproportional IN YOUR FAVOUR so you can win the damned thing. I suggest people on these forums read a few notable philosophers on war. Starting with the classics: Sun Tzu "The Art of War' and von Clausewitz "On War". You could then move into more complex theories of modern warfare after you understand the basics.

Or, as I have done, studied the..Romans.

They knew how to hammer out an empire, and keep it for say, 600 years.

The reason for their being able to do that has very much to do with their treatment of, for example, the Carthaginians, Iberians, Celts in Gaul and Dacians.

Not a very nice, unbloody story, but one of cold, cost-effective rationality.

 

[HossamCFD]

Now think why Mubarak is still in power, maybe it's Israel fault?(Although we did build for you the pyramids) No I think it's Egyptians fault...
..

Yes indeed, it's the Egyptians fault. I am not the kind of guy that blame others for his own mistakes/laziness. But it's not a secret that many Israeli politicians have raised concerns about about his health situation and who is going to succeed him . It's also not a secret that He has full support from the Obama's administration as opposed to the general public opinion in the US who are not happy with their government supporting a dictatorial regime

 

[HossamCFD]

Why plural?

My bad

English is not my native language anyway

 

[jreelawg]

First I'd like to say, that pretty much everyone has blinders on of different sorts. How you were raised, your religion, your culture, how the people around you rub off on you, where your news sources come from, what experiences you've been through. If you are asking what is the correct way to look at the world, it depends. Going to the military, and losing friends may give you some perspective, but I don't see how it better educates you to make political decisions less your hatred of the enemy has inspired you to be ruthless to them. your glasses are just as much blinders as someone different than you, and they appeal to your strong emotions based on your experiences. In some cases, your glasses can make you a bit nutty and irrational.

 

[zomgwtf]

First I'd like to say, that pretty much everyone has blinders on of different sorts. How you were raised, your religion, your culture, how the people around you rub off on you, where your news sources come from, what experiences you've been through. If you are asking what is the correct way to look at the world, it depends. Going to the military, and losing friends may give you some perspective, but I don't see how it better educates you to make political decisions less your hatred of the enemy has inspired you to be ruthless to them. your glasses are just as much blinders as someone different than you, and they appeal to your strong emotions based on your experiences.

I don't htink this is really true. Looking at it with blinders on means you judge the actions just for the actions. Looking at things objectively means taking a step back and thinking critically about what has happened. No appeal to emotions, no appeal to ideologies, just hard facts and knowledge of human nature.

 

[estro]

I really don't know if you are serious about this or just joking.

You have great sense for humor...
I'm aware of the fact that Jews probably has nothing to do with pyramids...

...
the Hebrews, did not even exist until centuries after that, let alone coming to Egypt.

I think some guys need to learn some history.

You're right, some history reading can only make you good...

 

[jreelawg]

I guess I'm talking about peoples perspectives on a broader scale. Maybe I'm using the terms incorrectly. But everything in life is not so clear cut. If you are entirely objective like you say, then you would have no opinion. I'm talking making assumptions of right and wrong, and so forth, and not specifically about the topic of this thread.

Also, what specifically is unique to people with different views in many cases, is their views and understanding of human nature. Maybe the military gives you strong opinions and experiences about human nature which are skewed in the broader picture. The same can be said for pretty much everyone, with their own specific factors.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Exactly, but this just isn't something you're going to convince a ideological teenager of, especially one that lives is a very nice and developed nation . Some people truly believe all the worlds problems are 'non-sense' and never require fighting... there's always 'another better route that doesn't involve deaths'. 10% of the time, this may be the case... the majority of the time though... I'm highly skeptical.

Nothing in war needs to be proportional. A MAJOR component of war theory is exactly the opposite actually, intentionally make things unproportional IN YOUR FAVOUR so you can win the damned thing. I suggest people on these forums read a few notable philosophers on war. Starting with the classics: Sun Tzu "The Art of War' and von Clausewitz "On War". You could then move into more complex theories of modern warfare after you understand the basics.

Or you QUESTION what's been established and worked out instead of learning and embracing "the old wisdoms" and then dancing along in a crowd, hand in hand, in a merry tune for the good of Imperialism.

So what if it's established war theory, and the best way of winning the war? Why is winning the war always the best thing? Why is it important that the enemy's side dies rather than your own, even if it means that a hundred times as many enemies will die?

There are ALWAYS alternatives to a head-on assault (in before you point out a specific exception). This conflict is vastly, vastly more complicated than "one side is shooting at the other", and you are fully aware of that. It is a conflict of territory, history, culture, and religion. The problem is that Hamas has gained a following among the general population, through various strategies. KILLING the general population seems to be of dubious effectivity in order to reduce that support, considering Hamas' whole rhethoric is about retaliation.

But what do I know, I'm just an ideological teenager in a first-world country.

 

[jreelawg]

The problem with war philosophies like Tsun Tsu, is that war is hell, and most people don't want to live in a constant state of war. Especially under a philosophy where lying, being sneaky, and stabbing in the back is the best method.

Most people come out of the military with the belief instilled into them, that there is no choice in the matter, war is the way of the world, and always will be.

But what you see also, is an escalation coming from both sides.

For example, if you are fighting an enemy in combat, and your best friends all die in front of you at the hand of the enemy. You might come out of the situation with the view that piece is not good enough, it doesn't accommodate the revenge you lust for.

And on the other side, a man may be kneeling beside the body parts of his child thinking the same thing, peace is not good enough without revenge.

In the end, you have a whole lot of people just out to destroy each other.

Then you have the people who realize the faults and confusions of the individual, and take the stance they cannot learn. They say the only way to peace is though war and tyranny, or through fascism. To advance this method, they egg on the confused individuals and perpetuate their faults and weakness. Kind of like the sith lord would. And meanwhile, the truths and strengths of human nature take a back seat in a world that chooses to make them irrelevant.

 

[tiny-tim]

Israelis = Nazis?

The Israeli's are acting toward the people of Gaza as the Nazi's did to the Jews or have they forgotten.

To use Nazi's as a comparison was a mistake to which I humbly apologise.

No, it was not a "mistake".

I agree. It was clearly deliberate … deliberately offensive and bizarrely untrue.

I am just disgusted with the heavy handed tactics which cost lives when a shot across the bow would have avoided loss of any life.

A shot across the bow? That is ridiculous … the ship would have refused to stop anyway, and called the Israelis' bluff.

Nobody on that ship believed that the Israelis wanted to sink it
i] because they know the Israelis tend to try to use minimum force (as they did anyway on this occasion )
ii] because the Israelis wanted the food and medicines to get to Gaza, which would not be achieved by sinking the ship.

The Israeli soldiers, far from being heavy-handed, acted with considerable restraint, leaving their firearms holstered far longer than any neighbouring army would have done, despite sustaining serious injuries.

Paradoxically, if they had been heavy-handed, firing weapons from the start, there would probably have been no deaths.

 

[Office_Shredder]

So what if it's established war theory, and the best way of winning the war? Why is winning the war always the best thing? Why is it important that the enemy's side dies rather than your own, even if it means that a hundred times as many enemies will die?

Are you suggesting that people should allow themselves to be killed for the purposes of ensuring the smallest total number of people be killed?