Americans lacking in geographic knowledge

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The discussion centers around the perceived decline in educational standards, particularly in geography, science, and general knowledge. Participants express concern that inadequate middle and high school education contributes to a culture that prioritizes entertainment over learning. There is a consensus that this issue stems from a combination of poor educational systems and student attitudes, which are influenced by parental involvement. Many participants share personal experiences of struggling with geography and express skepticism about the importance of memorizing geographical facts, arguing that such knowledge can be easily looked up. However, they also acknowledge that a basic understanding of geography is crucial for comprehending world events and politics. The conversation highlights a broader societal issue where curiosity and academic pursuits are often undervalued, leading to a general apathy towards education and knowledge. The thread concludes with reflections on the need for educational reform to address these challenges and promote a culture that values learning and critical thinking.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060502/ap_on_re_us/where_s_louisiana

Now add this to the miserable literacy in science, I'd say we have it made.

Zz.
 
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So, is this part of the generic problem with inadequate (middle/high) school level education; is it mostly a problem (in general) with the attitudes of the students; or is this something specific to teaching/learning geography (& science & math) ?

Opinions ?
 
I'd say its sheer lack of education in everything. The level of education is horribly low, spawning a culture that gobbles up the ambivalent nothingness of empty entertainment. It's not focused on one area of academics: its a problem that covers every level of education. Consider the literacy rate, general knowledge of science, or basic geography such as this.
 
Gokul43201 said:
So, is this part of the generic problem with inadequate (middle/high) school level education; is it mostly a problem (in general) with the attitudes of the students; or is this something specific to teaching/learning geography (& science & math) ?
Probably some combination of the educational system and attitudes of students. I don't believe it is unique to geography.

The attitudes of students are influenced by the attitudes of parents, and sadly, I think many parents are not sufficiently concerned about the education of their children.

I visited the local high school last year, and I was very disappointed in the majority of students as reflected by their comments.

There are bright students out there, but they are a minority.
 
I have to say when I was in grade school, I was awful at geography. I would get a sheet of paper with unlabeled countries or states and be clueless. I had a general idea of where the states or nations were, but I was unfamiliar with the shapes. Now if I had received a map with some of the other locations labeled around it, I would not have had much trouble. I ended up learning that way, I memorized the locations of a few key states, and filled in the rest through being somewhat familiar with the regions.

30% thought the US/Mexico was the most fortified border? How odd, almost funny.
 
You get what ou ask for. We don't make education a priorit - in fact people who know more are often looked down more then respected, so it's no surprise when education suffers.
 
I HATED geography; we had a teacher who went under a name like Old Foggy, and I can say with absolute honesty that I haven't got a clue to what his classes were about. (I remember some excursions to look at some stones, but that's all).

Can't find Lousiana on a map?
Heck, I'm not always able to find my way home..:frown:
 
I wonder how many countries do well in geographical knowledge in the first place. I know vector calculus, bits of quantum physics, and a fair amount of computer science... but damn, i can't find my nose on my face with a mirror let alone all 50 capitals.

I think an insignificant part of the problem (although its a big problem for me personally) might be that... who cares? I personally would never waste my time learning what all the capitals are if i could be using that time to learn more quantum mechanics.

I also seem to notice that there is an absolutely illogical connection between 'knowledge of world events' and geography. Not that it has anyhting to do with the thread.
 
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arildno said:
Can't find Lousiana on a map?
Heck, I'm not always able to find my way home..:frown:

:smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: Hell I am lucky I only have my house, university, and big fast-food area to remember in my city. Anything more and i'd be lost 1/2 the day.
 
  • #10
Six in 10 did not know the border between North and
South Korea is the most heavily fortified in the world. Thirty percent thought the most heavily fortified border was between the United States and Mexico.

Nearly three-quarters incorrectly named English as the most widely spoken native language.

:smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:

Ok, I'm good...no I'm not

:smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:

Ok...weeee...
 
  • #11
Considering most people think that too much education is retarded, I'd say things will only get worse and not better.

Reading itself is considered a weird/odd past time. Most people react like "Why the hell would you read a book that is not assigned to you by the teacher or even the book that IS assigned to you when you can just watch the movie?".

Being curious is also considered odd and sometimes probably stupid/retarded. Their usual answer is simply... "That's the way it is.", "Who cares.", and/or some non-sense explanation like they thought of it on the spot.

Choosing to learn something is also considered weird/odd, stupid/retarded or flat out f@c&ed up. This is why choosing to become anything that does not concern money is basically not socially acceptable. Choosing to become a professor, scientists, and/or the like is just weird until you get the job if the job pays well otherwise still weird. Choosing to become a doctor is only acceptable because it makes money. Consider the reaction people get when you say you want to be a doctor, "Man, you'll make lots of money!", and/or "What kind of car will you drive?". It's never for the benefit of the people. Becoming a lawyer is like "Whoa! You must be very smart. You'll be rich too!" while being completely oblivious to the fact that being a scientists requires the same amount of intelligence if not more. (You can't compare really, so let's avoid that debate).

The focus of western society is simply the three y's easy, lazy, and money.

Things that seem to be socially acceptable...

For careers...

- Doctor
- Lawyer
- Business Person
- Teachers (sometimes not though)

Mechanics, plumbers, scientists, and so on are not one of those because you must either be dumb or f@c&ed up.

Why isn't Engineer on the list? This is because an Engineer would have to work hard during school, and to get things going at the beginning. This is considered too much work for the money.

For past times...

- Reading Newspaper and/or Magazine articles, but not necessarily finishing them because some are just too long.
- Watching TV.
- Drinking Beer.
- Staring at the wall.
- Sleeping after sleeping.
- Eating.
- Ocassional book, but it must be VERY popular and fiction.
- Gossiping. The more the better. However annoying it is sometimes for everyone, everyone enjoys it anyways because it's entertaining.

The list goes on.

Things that are not socially acceptable.

For past times...

- Reading a book, especially if you finish it and/or if it is non-fiction.
- Learning something new. Taking a new course, exploring for yourself, and/or reading a textbook. Especially going back to school.
- Playing sports for fun. (Considered a waste of time if you're not going/planning to become pro.)
- Thinking.

The list goes on.

Anyways, this is the image of the general public that I see. People say it's cool to you're face, but personally you can see that they rather do something else or take another way because what you are doing is just too much work if any at all. Like keeping the same lame job and trying to win the lottery because that's easier.

Of course, I seem pessimistic about this, but I was once optimistic. I tried to pass on the idea of a positive happy life, but that itself is considered retarded. For that reason, this society is just digging itself into a big hole of nothingness and closed-mindedness.

Even though I am pessimistic right now, I still do try to pass around the positive happy life. I don't advertise or anything, but when people complain (I complain too), I try to bring in another perspective for them to see although it's usually always rejected as retarded.

There is just so much emphasis on being right, making money, and the world circling perfectly around them that whenever of one these things goes slightly wrong everyone goes nuts. Since the world is clearly never perfect, they are always going nuts.

Note: I know it's a long post, but I did re-read it.
 
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  • #12
Pengwuino said:
I also seem to notice that there is an absolutely illogical connection between 'knowledge of world events' and geography.

Whaaa?

How can one possibly understand world politics without knowing such "trivia" () like, oh say... Iraq has a border with Iran? India has a border with Pakistan? The United States does not, in fact, compromise 95% of the world's landmass (as some of our nationalists actually believe)? The distance between California and North Korea is much greater than the range of their No Dong missiles (though Japan isn't so lucky)? The Ukraine sits between central Europe and Russia?
 
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  • #13
Rach3 said:
Whaaa?

How can one possibly understand world politics without knowing such "trivia" () like, oh say... Iraq has a border with Iran? India has a border with Pakistan? The United States does not, in fact, compromise 95% of the world's landmass (as some of our nationalists actually believe)? The distance between California and North Korea is much greater than the range of their No Dong missiles (though Japan isn't so lucky)? The Ukraine sits between central Europe and Russia?

I'm not talking about those kinds of things. I'm talking about these silly studies where they ask someone to point to argentina on a map or brazil or niger and when they can't, they make this stupid connection towards the person's knowledge about internaitonal affairs.
 
  • #14
Reminds me of when I was living back East. Middle of July, 105 degrees F., 99% humidity, and people were coming south across the border from Detroit with skis on top of their cars. When they looked around all puzzled and asked where the snow was, we'd tell them to turn around the way they came from and go about 1,000 miles. :biggrin:
 
  • #15
arildno said:
I HATED geography; we had a teacher who went under a name like Old Foggy, and I can say with absolute honesty that I haven't got a clue to what his classes were about. (I remember some excursions to look at some stones, but that's all).

Can't find Lousiana on a map?
Heck, I'm not always able to find my way home..:frown:
I'll give you a hint. Your home isn't in South America. hehehehehehe :-p

Pengwuino said:
... but damn, i can't find my nose on my face with a mirror let alone all 50 capitals.
Instead of trying to find all 50 capitals on your face, you should try Proactive. It works wonders. :smile:

:devil: Oh, I'm going to hell for sure now. Making fun of some poor soul's acne problem. :frown:
 
  • #16
Pengwuino said:
I wonder how many countries do well in geographical knowledge in the first place. I know vector calculus, bits of quantum physics, and a fair amount of computer science... but damn, i can't find my nose on my face with a mirror let alone all 50 capitals.

I think an insignificant part of the problem (although its a big problem for me personally) might be that... who cares? I personally would never waste my time learning what all the capitals are if i could be using that time to learn more quantum mechanics.
I agree 100%. You can look up the answer to basically any geographical question in a couple minutes with an encyclopedia or a globe, or in a few seconds with google. You cannot figure out how to solve a complex DiffEq or design a high-speed FPGA circuit without having studied the subjects in great detail. It's important to be able to look up geographic info accurately when needed. IMO, it's not an important thing to keep at hand mentally -- that space is too important for other things.
 
  • #17
When I was growing up, I was intrigued by people from other parts of the world. My father worked for the World Council of Churches for a brief period. We entertained people from all over the world.

One of my fondest gifts was a world atlas, and I used to spend hours looking at the continents and countries. I have several atlases, since the world has changed quite a lot in 40 years, and is still changing. I also like to collect atlases in other languages. :biggrin:

I don't think knowledge of geography should be trivialized. I hope to visit as many countries as possible in my lifetime. :-p

As for current events, it's nice to have some knowledge since I don't count on the media to get it right. :biggrin:
 
  • #18
berkeman said:
I agree 100%. You can look up the answer to basically any geographical question in a couple minutes with an encyclopedia or a globe, or in a few seconds with google. You cannot figure out how to solve a complex DiffEq or design a high-speed FPGA circuit without having studied the subjects in great detail. It's important to be able to look up geographic info accurately when needed. IMO, it's not an important thing to keep at hand mentally -- that space is too important for other things.

Oh boy! That reminds me of some strange as hell conversation I had a while ago with someone saying physics is easy and that all science was easy "because I can just look it up in a book and know what you will study for years to know". Sounds like a future welfare-client.
 
  • #19
berkeman said:
I agree 100%. You can look up the answer to basically any geographical question in a couple minutes with an encyclopedia or a globe, or in a few seconds with google. You cannot figure out how to solve a complex DiffEq or design a high-speed FPGA circuit without having studied the subjects in great detail. It's important to be able to look up geographic info accurately when needed. IMO, it's not an important thing to keep at hand mentally -- that space is too important for other things.
Well, I guess if National Geographic conducted tests on Math or Science or Engineering, they'd find Americans doing better than the rest of the silly world that wastes brain space on easily lookupable geographic trivia ? :-p

Pengwuino : How would others have done ?

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=101350&highlight=geographic

As for the questions asked, we are NOT talking about knowing where Argentina is (though in my opinion, South America - excluding the Caribbean - is maybe the only continent where you don't have an excuse for not knowing every country); we are talking about Louisiana, New York (only 50% could point out NY state on the US map), Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and North Korea - the first places any good xenophobe should know about.
 
  • #20
Gokul43201 said:
As for the questions asked, we are NOT talking about knowing where Argentina is (though in my opinion, South America - excluding the Caribbean - is maybe the only continent where you don't have an excuse for not knowing every country); we are talking about Louisiana, New York (only 50% could point out NY state on the US map), Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and North Korea - the first places any good xenophobe should know about.

So the rest of the world is more xenophobic then us? :confused: :confused: :confused: :smile: :smile: :smile:
 
  • #21
Kills a joke to have to explain it...
 
  • #22
arildno said:
I HATED geography; we had a teacher who went under a name like Old Foggy, and I can say with absolute honesty that I haven't got a clue to what his classes were about. (I remember some excursions to look at some stones, but that's all).
World geography was my favorit class last semseter. The teacher was very good teacher(even thought I think he spent to much time on the United states and Canada) he did good powerpoint prestions and he explained everything really well. I think if it's more of the teachers fault if the sutdents failing geography. There's seems to be too much 2D maps on overhead projecters ours used used projectors(not overhead) with big pictures of the places that were studying.
 
  • #23
Gokul43201 said:
Kills a joke to have to explain it...

Man this forum needs a lesson in joke-making. I laugh more in my chemistry lab. After spilling nitric acid on my hand. While falling out a window.
 
  • #24
I didn't know I don't know so much about social sciences and the like. I scored 14 out of 20. That's pretty bad,

Wrongs,
Which of these cities is the setting for the original television series CSI: Crime Scene Investigation?

In which of these countries did a catastrophic earthquake occur in October 2005, killing over 70,000 people?

In 2004, what percentage of population growth in the U.S. was due to immigration?

Which of the following was not a significant contributing factor in Hurricane Katrina's impact on the city of New Orleans?

Which language is spoken by the most people in the world as their primary language? (no I didn't vote for english :biggrin: )

Which of these countries is the world's largest exporter of goods and services measured in dollar value?

All the rest has gotten plain 20?
 
  • #25
That CSI question was moronic - what was it doing there? What the heck do TV soap operas have to do with geography and world affairs?

Fie on the authors.
 
  • #26
Gokul43201 said:
Well, I guess if National Geographic conducted tests on Math or Science or Engineering, they'd find Americans doing better than the rest of the silly world that wastes brain space on easily lookupable geographic trivia ? :-p

Touche! :frown:
 
  • #27
Well, I guess if National Geographic conducted tests on Math or Science or Engineering, they'd find Americans doing better than the rest of the silly world that wastes brain space on easily lookupable geographic trivia ?
Betcha Japan would still beat us.
 
  • #28
You Yanks are really backward, I can point LA out on a map and NY and Washington and Pakistan and Australia and Tsurinam and Nepal and even some regions of countries and know many capitals, I once memorised them all for a bet though so that's not really a fair comparison(as I still remember some of them) But then Geography is part of the national curriculum in England(ie you have to study it) For me knowing the capiltal of countries and precise locations isn't all that important. Not knowing a countries, beliefs it's traditions it's form of government it's reason for that government, it's recent history, it's technology level, problems and attitudes is far more worrying, particularly if you are a politician or a soldier.

The effect of ignorance there can be far more damaging. Before the invasion could Bush have pointed out Iraq on the map and told us their history from post colonial English state to present day, I doubt it :) In fact I doubt he could do it now, I suspect if asked to point to Iraq he'd point to Iran though :wink: :smile:
 
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  • #29
berkeman said:
I agree 100%. You can look up the answer to basically any geographical question in a couple minutes with an encyclopedia or a globe, or in a few seconds with google. You cannot figure out how to solve a complex DiffEq or design a high-speed FPGA circuit without having studied the subjects in great detail. It's important to be able to look up geographic info accurately when needed. IMO, it's not an important thing to keep at hand mentally -- that space is too important for other things.
I have to agree with this. The important things I learned in geography didn't include memorizing state capitals or the location of every country in the world or every capital of every country, but did include how to read a map. Some of my friends were great a memorizing those things; they could just rattle off state capitals and such. It's not worth memorizing tons of picky details that can be easily looked up...in any field. Know general concepts...be able to orient yourself on a map, have general ideas of where a country or state is located, and then look it up if you can't remember that one and need to know to get yourself there.
 
  • #30
But it is important, also, to know some stuff off of the top of your head. Like National Geographic could ask something like "Where is Bagdhad, and would you like to live there?" You should be able to answer correctly.
 
  • #31
Well, I disagree, because you guys are looking at the trees and missing the forrest.

Notice that the survey put in CONTEXT the question they asked. I mean, they're not asking for someone to point to the island of Samoa, or the location of some obscure places. They're asking for places which (i) have impacted our lives (ii) have been in the news A LOT (iii) have been a major topic of conversation for the majority of us.

To me, considering the impact of Hurricane Katrina to the US, and NOT knowing where the state is, shows an utter ignorance and lack of caring of the news. It shows that even for events that have significant impact to our lives, some people are content to simply have a superficial knowledge of the situation. They are too lazy to even care where it is occurring in relations to where they are. Just think, of they can't even bother to even LOOK at where these places are, how much do you think they'll bother in figuring out the intricate issues surrounding these things? How many of those who can't point out where Isreal is located actually put in any effort to figure out why we are so involved in that region in the first place?

These are symptoms, folks, not the cause! Symptoms of a contentment for mediocrity. And then we complain that these politicians are liars and how bad things are! When people are content to simply get their info from sound bites and fancy messages with bells and whistles, then this is what we all deserve!

Zz.
 
  • #32
. . . . be able to orient yourself on a map, have general ideas of where a country or state is located, and then look it up if you can't remember that one and need to know to get yourself there.
I think in some tests (perhaps this one too), students are given maps, and many still can't identify states or countries.

I'd probably miss the question on CSI because I don't watch TV, except for news or science programs. :smile:

I second ZapperZ's comments!
 
  • #33
Mk said:
But it is important, also, to know some stuff off of the top of your head. Like National Geographic could ask something like "Where is Bagdhad, and would you like to live there?" You should be able to answer correctly.

Bagdhad is the Capital of Iraq and it lies in the area known as the fertile crescent between the Euphrates and Tigris rivers, historically it is situated close to the ancient capital of the Babylonian Empire. And no I wouldn't want to live there not in a month of sundays, it's comparitively peaceful atm but that could change in a heartbeat.

I agree basic knowledge like this is fundemental. If you don't know where a country is or what it's history is then you have no business being there at all. Soldiers should be required to learn a countries state and economics and history as basic part of training, and kids should know this basic stuff too by the time they leave school.
 
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  • #34
On a lighter note, though this video may have come up before.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2587661313510275113"
 
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  • #35
Schrodinger's Dog said:
...it's comparitively peaceful atm...

Compared to...?
 
  • #36
The mosque bombings a few months back, the Israel - Palestine war of 1948, World war III, Woodstock, noise wise anyway, my two younger cousins in a fight wholesale mayhem and noise wise.
 
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  • #37
Moonbear said:
I have to agree with this. The important things I learned in geography didn't include memorizing state capitals or the location of every country in the world or every capital of every country, but did include how to read a map. Some of my friends were great a memorizing those things; they could just rattle off state capitals and such. It's not worth memorizing tons of picky details that can be easily looked up...in any field. Know general concepts...be able to orient yourself on a map, have general ideas of where a country or state is located, and then look it up if you can't remember that one and need to know to get yourself there.
Moonbear, the test doesn't ask you to point out the location of Cheyenne, WY. It's asking you to point out Louisiana and New York State. And if you can't find the intersection of the Mississippi river and the Gulf coast, that wouldn't speak very highly of map reading skills either.
 
  • #38
Schrodinger's Dog said:
The mosque bombings a few months back, the Israel - Palestine war of 1948, World war III, Woodstock, noise wise anyway, my two younger cousins in a fight wholesale mayhem and noise wise.
Good thing you clarified. With over 75 injured and about 10 killed from bombings last monday, I wouldn't call it relatively peaceful compared to nearly any other part of the world.
 
  • #39
ZapperZ said:
Well, I disagree, because you guys are looking at the trees and missing the forrest.

Notice that the survey put in CONTEXT the question they asked. I mean, they're not asking for someone to point to the island of Samoa, or the location of some obscure places. They're asking for places which (i) have impacted our lives (ii) have been in the news A LOT (iii) have been a major topic of conversation for the majority of us.

To me, considering the impact of Hurricane Katrina to the US, and NOT knowing where the state is, shows an utter ignorance and lack of caring of the news. It shows that even for events that have significant impact to our lives, some people are content to simply have a superficial knowledge of the situation. They are too lazy to even care where it is occurring in relations to where they are. Just think, of they can't even bother to even LOOK at where these places are, how much do you think they'll bother in figuring out the intricate issues surrounding these things? How many of those who can't point out where Isreal is located actually put in any effort to figure out why we are so involved in that region in the first place?

These are symptoms, folks, not the cause! Symptoms of a contentment for mediocrity. And then we complain that these politicians are liars and how bad things are! When people are content to simply get their info from sound bites and fancy messages with bells and whistles, then this is what we all deserve!

Zz.
I fully agree with this. It IS serious; sorry for being jocular about it in the first place.
 
  • #40
I agree with ZapperZ on this.
Given the context that most things asked about in the poll were recent and ongoing events I'd call the performance of the respondents pathetic at best and IMO smacks of general laziness and disintrest to things that don't immediatly effect them (it's not right in front of my nose and happening now so who cares?). I think it's an indication of a short attention span which spins off into the possibility of not being good long term thinkers or long term problem solvers.
Granted that while it may not be important to know/memorize the capitals of all 50 states or of all the nations of the world, IMO it is important to know general geography (and history, another thing that I think is lacking in most peoples general knowledge).
 
  • #41
Gokul43201 said:
Good thing you clarified. With over 75 injured and about 10 killed from bombings last monday, I wouldn't call it relatively peaceful compared to nearly any other part of the world.

Indeed compared to Monday it is relatively peaceful too :wink:

Those who do not take note of history are doomed to repeat it:

Someone I can't remember a long time ago who is now dead I believe :smile:

Although a friend of mine tells me one of the US presidents once said that was bunk, which kind of speaks volumes.

History, politics, geography and religion(US and world) Are any of these taught in the US and to what level? I know that most are taught in the UK from 5 to 10 year olds and then you can chose to study them 'till you leave school at 16.

Would a child be exposed to any of these? Growing up I was exposed to all but politics in primary school, which I also managed to avoid in secondary school by chosing classics(somewhat a rarity of a subject anyway) instead of history, geography or music/art, religous education(R.E) There was no politics in secondary school although it is part of other subjects, at least not when I was there, you could study it at college though 16-18 if you were interested.

How would you go about getting the schools to reform anyway?

It does seem odd to me though that a country which has amongst the brightest academics in the world has such a poor pre college education system, not that the UK's is the best in the world, but it still seems head and shoulders above the US's ATM.
 
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  • #42
From my perspective, the "contentment with mediocrity", as ZapperZ mentioned, is just one effect of:

1) Students not accepting individual responsibility for their lack of academic competence, accusing teachers or some BS demographic factors to their "incompetence".
*Also, think of it from the political viewpoint. Remember that parents are indeed voting citizens :wink:, and whichever politicians claims incompetence/laziness is not "poor Johnny's (or "your kid's")" fault...are likely to be the parents' choice!

2) Grade inflation. When teachers give out "A's" and "B's" just for coming to class everyday, or just showing "effort", the result is a false impression of competence perceived by those looking at students' transcripts, and by the students themselves.

A common belief among students/parents is that students are somehow "entitled" competence due to "hard work"/effort. When students don't gain the competence ...well, grades are the next best thing! (because unlike competence, grades can be faked). Read my letter below:

bomba923 said:
Dear Nanette Asimov,

I am a high school student at George Washington High School, part of the San Francisco Unified School District.
From my experience, serious grade inflation is ubiquitous among all courses and grade levels (9-12, freshman to senior), and I propose a solution to this problem.

"Grade inflation" includes not only "grading on an easy curve," but also "grading without curve, but on criteria that (often apparently) fails to accurately describe or reflect students' competence, knowledge, and ability." Often, that is the case among high school teachers, which, in my opinion, confuse "effort" and "competence".

Even in "honors" classes, particularly the humanities, a grade is often only 20-30% tests, and the rest is "effort"--i.e., homework, classwork, participation, etc. For an "organized binder with over 'x' quantity of notes", students can raise their grades from C's to A's, from D's to B's, and so on. For "doing all of the homework", students can expect similar results. Unfortunately, no "binder," no matter how "nice-looking and organized", no "art poster illustrating World War II", can substitute for a critical knowledge and understanding of the course material. It does not matter how well a student can "illustrate a soldier" or "how many pages of notes a student can write" or "how neatly can a student organize a binder" if they lack competence, knowledge, and understanding of the course material.

A critical effect of serious grading founded on faulty criteria is the "expectance of competence derived from blind effort and inflated grades." In classes of mathematics and the sciences, where tests and exams generally count for no less than ~70% of a student's grade, students often complain of low grades (primarily based on test scores), demanding "higher grades" because they "did" all of their homework and labs, and "studied for hours". Neither is an acceptable reason to improve grades. Mere "completion," and especially the "completion of homework and classwork" is ultimately worthless if students cannot (and do not learn to) focus their abilities individually in an environment devoid of "notes, resources, peers"...an environment consisting only of a pencil and the test paper.

Unfortunately, the effect of grading directly on "effort" is, most apparently, a retardation in one's "effort" and a sense of anti-intellectualism. When one student has to complete "four" skill sheets and study for "five hours" for a chemistry test, while another student needs just read the text for an hour or so to perform equally or (often times) better on a test, it is not fair to downgrade the latter student for a "lack of effort". Quite often, bright and high-scoring students are actually downgraded for a "lack of effort" in a high school course. Underperforming and incompetent students may argue "It's not fair that he/she's is more efficient than us," and the teacher often willingly takes pity on those students. No longer is "competence" required; all that is required for an "A" is effort, and thus "everybody passes". Simply grade students on "how many review sheets did you complete" and "how neat is your binder" and therefore, "everybody can succeed," even those ridiculously unprepared for the course. Not only are such rewards for mere "effort" undoubtedly anti-intellectual, they can, and often do, remove the entire purpose of effort---to learn and gain competence.

The final problem I will address here is the perceived "nature" of effort.
-Joe is preparing for a test, and has worked on 62 problems in factoring. Unfortunately, the test also includes "completing-the-square problems." Joe spends all of his time working ""hard"" on the factoring problems, but fails the test because he forgot to learn how to complete-the-square. And rightfully so does he fail that test. Without a doubt, Joe "worked hard"; unfortunately, he did not "work smart". The next day, he demands a raise in grades due to his "hard work". By no means does Joe deserve a higher grade; not because he didn't work "hard" (which he undoubtedly did), but because he failed to work "smart" and efficiently. A sad case for any teacher deciding grades. Worse, when this case does arise, the student who worked "less hard" but aced the test (and gain knowledge, skills, and competence) is often penalized with a grade based on 20-30% tests, and 70-80% "effort"---for what is, essentially, "achieving more (competence, knowledge, and ability) with less effort" and downplaying the idea that "(blind and often useless) 'effort' in itself will bestow competence."

Conclusion:
Effort is a means of acquiring (the goals of) competence, knowledge, and understanding. In itself, it is not a goal. How much is needed and how it should be executed varies from individual to individual. We must not grade students on the "quantity of effort", but rather on the quality of their effort, which is reflected in class tests and the SAT, a measure of how much competence, knowledge, and skills the students, both as students and as individuals, possess.

Regarding your article, such a grade quota is obviously ill-conceived if it does not include any way to check teachers' academic honesty in assigning grades. Even now, there are no checks on teachers to ensure the academic credibility of their grade assignments! (that they assign grades based on the students' competence and academic ability).

My solution plans to change that. When we complain that certain reforms fail to consider "root issues", we often forget that grade inflation itself is a root issue, and is nowhere far from #1 on that list (I personally consider the most important of the "root issues").

My solution is the first post in this thread, at https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=104494

*Just some added info:

~Poor parental involvement, another issue with grade inflation:
>Honestly now, what parent/student will complain about the "lack of rigor" / "quality of instruction" in academic courses if they see a nice "A" or "B" on a transcript? And no, unless you are perhaps an AP teacher, there are no checks performed on teachers to ensure that the grades they assign are academically honest. Heck...no one will check teachers as long as students/parents don't complain, and dishing out A's and B's is an effective way to eliminate those problems. Sad but true :frown:

Schrodinger's Dog said:
How would you go about getting the schools to reform anyway?
:approve: I have an excellent educational reform plan here :
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=104494
 
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  • #43
Excellent letter, bomba923.

Also, I ran across another video. It is almost as sad as the one posted earlier: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1103776590118655660&q=Women%27s+Suffrage&pl=true .
 
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  • #44
Although that letter is very good, I have no idea why you wrote that to a science fiction magazine.
 
  • #45
Mk said:
Although that letter is very good, I have no idea why you wrote that to a science fiction magazine.

"SF Chronicle" = "San Francisco Chronicle", a common daily newspaper
(not science fiction :smile:)
 
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  • #46
Oh, heh. Also, the person you were writing to's last name was Asimov.
 
  • #47
Geography is not properly touhgt if it is tought at all.
 
  • #48
usa1981 said:
Geography is not properly touhgt if it is tought at all.

Neither is spelling.
 
  • #49
Rach3 said:
Neither is spelling.
I just have trouble with my spelling especially when I am in a hurry my father thinks I spend to much time on the internet. He has been throwing me wheneve he catches me on the internet.
 
  • #50
Schrodinger's Dog said:
You Yanks are really backward, I can point LA out on a map and NY and Washington and Pakistan and Australia and Tsurinam and Nepal and even some regions of countries and know many capitals, I once memorised them all for a bet though so that's not really a fair comparison(as I still remember some of them) But then Geography is part of the national curriculum in England(ie you have to study it) For me knowing the capiltal of countries and precise locations isn't all that important.

All of that is taught. I recall memorizing all of the state capitals, nearly all of the world capitals, their locations on maps, the locations of countries on maps. I took for granted the locations of states. I can still pretty easily remember all of these things as well. Then again, I spent time studying the Thomas Guides growing up, and whenever my parents got lost on the road, I knew exactly where we were and could tell them where to go. Maybe I'm just weird like that. Heck, I know all of the counties in Ireland.

Still, the point being, this is taught, or at least it was in the 90s. I can't imagine the curriculum has changed all that much. The bigger problem is that people cram to memorize things for a test, and then immediately forget it. Honestly, though, I have to agree that knowing the locations of things on an unmarked map is not an important skill. I just remember everything I learn for whatever reason.

My girlfriend (don't mean to indict her - she does post here) can't point out many US states on a map, but that doesn't mean she's ignorant of what's happening in them. She doesn't know that the capital of Louisiana is Baton Rouge, that their state university's mascot is the Tiger (alternatively, the Bayou Bengal), that the state is named after the king of France, that it was originally claimed for France by a man named LaSalle, that it became a US territory in 1801 and a state in 1811, or that the Port of South Louisiana is the largest volume port in the western hemisphere, or that the pivotal battle of Milliken's Bend, in which Grant's Vicksburg campaign was cemented a success, resulting in his being put in charge of all Union forces, took place there, all facts that I can pull off the top of my head, simply because, as I said, I remember damn near everything I learn, be it from school, casual conversation, reading, television, whatever. She does, however, know a heck of a lot more about what happened and what is continuing to happen regarding Katrina.
 
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