Charge electric car from dryer plug?

[MTurner]

Hello, I was surprised to read today that one of the bigger impediments to electric cars coming to market is the fact that the 'quick' chargers require installation of a separate power line. Why? Every house, apartment, condo, etc in America pretty much has a 220 plug for the dryer. Why can't those be used to quick charge electric cars? It's not like people are using their dryers 24/7. I asked around a bit and basically the main reason a separate line has to be run is because of the danger of 220, but I don't see electric cars becoming commercially viable if everyone knows they have to get a separate line run at their own expense, and repeat it every time they move. Also, what about all the people in apartments, condos, etc? Is there not some type of system that could be devised that could securely fasten to the 220 plug with pass-through for the dryer, and run a cable up to 70 ft for hookup to a vehicle? It just doesn't seem like that would be something that is too hard for us to make...any ideas?

 

[russ_watters]

I saw the article and ran the math and I was pretty confused by the issue too. Here's what the CNN story says:

Electric cars like the Nissan Leaf and Chevrolet Volt ideally use special "quick chargers" that have to be hardwired directly into high-power lines.

Installing the chargers is not like putting in a ceiling fan. The equipment has to be fully approved, installed by a competent professional, and in most cases, a city or state inspector will have to approve it all.

You could plug your car into an ordinary wall socket, but not if you're in a hurry. Charging a Nissan Leaf would take up to 16 hours, and charging a Volt would take eight.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/11/autos/electric_car_charging_challenges/index.htm?cnn=yes

So let's look at the math:

The Wiki in the Volt has a 16 kWh battery, with 8 kWh useable (it is a plugin hybrid.
The Wiki on the Leaf just says a 24 kWh battery.
The Wiki on the Mini-e says a 35 kWh battery.

The National Electric Code says a branch circuit can't be designed more than 80% full, which for a typical residential circuit is 120Vx16A=1920W. I'm not sure if that is a the real maximum for a single device on a multiple outlet circuit, though, since the biggest draws you ever see for household devices are 1500W. But let's go with it...

For the Volt, that means the 8 kWh capacity takes 8/1.92=4.17 hours assuming 100% charging efficiency.
For the Leaf, 24/1.92= 12.5 hr
For the Mini-E, 35/1.92 = 18.2 hr

Now the Mini-E and Leaf have 100+mile ranges, so they go beyond what a "commuter car" should be expected to do. But yeah, if you want to drive 80 miles each way to Grandma's house for Thanksgiving, you may have an issue. As a 40 mile a day commuter car, it wouldn't be an issue.

Now let's say you use a dedicated 40A, 220V circuit (actual draw, 32A, 7.04 kW). The new numbers are:
Volt: 8/7.04=1.1 hr
Leaf: 24/7.04=3.4 hr
Mini-e: 35/7.04=5.0 hr

The downside, of course, to these is that you do need somewhat special circuits, so your options for where to charge would be limited.

Now what about the phrase: "hardwired directly into high-power lines"? The words don't really have a lot of meaning to me. "Hardwired" may mean there is no plug, that you wire the charging device directly to the circuit. That's not necessary and not how I would design it, but it may actually be that way. "High-power lines" is a completely meaningless phrase. I don't know what they intended by it, but every normal residence in the US has 220V.

A bigger issue, not discussed, is that not all residences will have that much extra power available. It isn't uncommon for a single family house with electric hot water, dryer and cooking (plus an air conditioner...) to have a 100A service. That's 4 devices up to 32 A apiece. You can use some diversity and not assume they are all running at full capacity all the time, but still, there may not be any extra capacity on such a house to add another 220V/40A circuit. And upgrading your service is very expensive.

In any case, though, yes you do need an electrician to add a 220V/40A circuit (almost certainly not an inspector). If the wiring is easy, it should cost <$500.

 

[MTurner]

Thanks for the math on that. I'm assuming those timeframes are to take a vehicle from 0-100% charge with a dedicated line. The question, however, was whether it would be feasible to simply use the 220 plug almost all housing units have available to charge an electric vehicle. Yes, you won't get the same timeframes as you would from a dedicated circuit, but most homes are not running at the capacity of their circuit a majority of the time. Most people just need a simple easy way to plug their cars in overnight for the next days commute, or to go back out that evening. So why not make it as simple and easy as using the dryer plug when circuit capacity is available (when ac is off etc)? Is there any reason NOT to? Does the current cause too much heat meaning special heat shielded cables are needed (if so, why don't dryers have them)? Can it not be transmitted across 70 ft easily? What are the logistical reasons it can't be done?

 

[russ_watters]

Except that you might need a really long cable to go from your dryer to the garage, no, there shouldn't be any problems with that.

 

[mgb_phys]

The question, however, was whether it would be feasible to simply use the 220 plug almost all housing units have available to charge an electric vehicle.

Yes it's perfectly reasonable to charge a small plugin electric from a 220v/16A dryer outlet (in the US) or a normal 230V/13A outlet (in the Eu). in Europe you could also run a separate 32A or 50A 230V circuit as you would for an immersion heater or electric shower. As russ worked out.

You would want slightly heavier cable than a regular extension cord just because of the handling it will take, being dragged out to the car every day, stepped on and driven over. You might also want to wire it into the dryer supply rather than use a regular dryer plug, but that's easy enough.

The demand for fast charge is for commercial operations. If you don't have a garage near the house you might want to charge up like you would at a gas station. Since even with custom power supplies it's going to take 15-30min to recharge just because of the limits of battery technology. The guess is that places like parking garages will offer pay-for recharge while you park, or supermarkets/malls will offer free recharge while you are shopping as a draw.

 

[gmax137]

I think it's just a matter of safety. They are pretty high currents.

So why not make it as simple and easy

I think that's the concern - too easy. Expect to read about some fool who buys a $0.99 cheap extension cord at the discount store & then grafts on the plug & socket from an old dryer cord... When the wires melt and his house burns down he's going to sue Chevvy

Can it not be transmitted across 70 ft easily? What are the logistical reasons it can't be done?

Seems like dragging a 70 foot cord up from the basement to the driveway every nite is kind of an inconvenience. I would sure rather have a dedicated line, with a self-winding retractable feature. Take a look at the kind of "shore power" cables that boats use to hook up power at marinas. Heavy cables prevent overheating & unnecessary voltage drop.

 

[dr dodge]

if you consider that you will be trying to charge your car after work, and your wife will be trying to get laundry done after work (our fam of 5 meant laundry every nite) then the shared plug gets "busy". during the 8 summer months in the south the AC unit will be running all day long, then with the dryer, hot water heater, home accessories, and electric car, I would bet that the 80% rule would get very close to the total load the house can safely handle. now add all the houses in the subdi-land, and added grid draw is going to go up. maybe what they really ment was the grid would need upgraded.

and I an not sure which I rather have, a way to work, or a clean shirt when I get there

dr

 

[russ_watters]

Yes it's perfectly reasonable to charge a small plugin electric from a 220v/16A dryer outlet (in the US) or a normal 230V/13A outlet (in the Eu). in Europe you could also run a separate 32A or 50A 230V circuit as you would for an immersion heater or electric shower. As russ worked out.

Actually, electric dryers tend to run on 40A circuits, not 20A circuits and nominal in the US is 240V, not 220. Here's a pretty standard electric dryer that's 240V, 26A: If the entire world's population were infected

You would want slightly heavier cable than a regular extension cord just because of the handling it will take, being dragged out to the car every day, stepped on and driven over. You might also want to wire it into the dryer supply rather than use a regular dryer plug, but that's easy enough.

The cable would be nowhere close to a regular extension cord. Neither the wire size nor the receptacle configuration would be typical.

 

[mheslep]

I saw the article and ran the math and I was pretty confused by the issue too. Here's what the CNN story says: http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/11/autos/electric_car_charging_challenges/index.htm?cnn=yes

So let's look at the math:

The Wiki in the Volt has a 16 kWh battery, with 8 kWh useable (it is a plugin hybrid.
The Wiki on the Leaf just says a 24 kWh battery.
The Wiki on the Mini-e says a 35 kWh battery.

The National Electric Code says a branch circuit can't be designed more than 80% full, which for a typical residential circuit is 120Vx16A=1920W. I'm not sure if that is a the real maximum for a single device on a multiple outlet circuit, though, since the biggest draws you ever see for household devices are 1500W. But let's go with it...

For the Volt, that means the 8 kWh capacity takes 8/1.92=4.17 hours assuming 100% charging efficiency.
For the Leaf, 24/1.92= 12.5 hr
For the Mini-E, 35/1.92 = 18.2 hr

Now the Mini-E and Leaf have 100+mile ranges, so they go beyond what a "commuter car" should be expected to do. But yeah, if you want to drive 80 miles each way to Grandma's house for Thanksgiving, you may have an issue. As a 40 mile a day commuter car, it wouldn't be an issue.

Now let's say you use a dedicated 40A, 220V circuit (actual draw, 32A, 7.04 kW). The new numbers are:
Volt: 8/7.04=1.1 hr
Leaf: 24/7.04=3.4 hr
Mini-e: 35/7.04=5.0 hr

The downside, of course, to these is that you do need somewhat special circuits, so your options for where to charge would be limited.

Great post Russ.

Now what about the phrase: "hardwired directly into high-power lines"? The words don't really have a lot of meaning to me. "Hardwired" may mean there is no plug, that you wire the charging device directly to the circuit. That's not necessary and not how I would design it, but it may actually be that way. "High-power lines" is a completely meaningless phrase. I don't know what they intended by it, but every normal residence in the US has 220V.

Yes I believe that's a crudely put way (by Money) of saying the quick chargers are probably 440V, i.e. service not typically available in residences.

A bigger issue, not discussed, is that not all residences will have that much extra power available. It isn't uncommon for a single family house with electric hot water, dryer and cooking (plus an air conditioner...) to have a 100A service. That's 4 devices up to 32 A apiece. You can use some diversity and not assume they are all running at full capacity all the time, but still, there may not be any extra capacity on such a house to add another 220V/40A circuit. And upgrading your service is very expensive.

A very good point. Not only is the upgrade to a large service expensive, the power utilities would push back if it was requested on a large scale. If 6/10 residences in a neighbourhood all wanted to bump from 100A to 400A, and use it, they'd have to upgrade the local transformers, at least. Essentially the residential neighbourhood would start looking like a commercial/industrial load to them, which is fine, but I expect they'd want to charge accordingly to handle the distribution upgrade.

 

[mheslep]

...I would sure rather have a dedicated line, with a self-winding retractable feature. .

I believe that self-wind is an important oversight now in most of the curb side, on the street chargers being installed. None of them have/support such a feature. The car driver rolls around with the cable, pulls it out to plug in. No retraction means at large scales means either a) cables have to be annoying short for street side parking maneuvers, or b) we all trip and drive over the slack in long cables.

Edit: looks like coiled cable is the proposed answer.

 

[mheslep]

Couple examples:

 

[mgb_phys]

Those look a bit 'design concept'
There is already a couple of proposed standards, Europe and Japan look like they are all going to agree on the Merc system.
The US could go with a different plug because people don't often drive into America from another country (except Canada which doesn't count ;-)

 

[gmax137]

thanks for the photos, mheslep

I don't see why the concept has the cable provided by the driver... I can see people unplugging the car end, go inside to pay or get a coke, and drive off leaving the cable behind. If I pulled into a gas station and found a just a hose fitting on the pump, I'd be pretty surprised ('what do you mean, you didn' bring your hose...'

I suppose there's a simple explanation that makes sense

 

[hamster143]

Yes I believe that's a crudely put way (by Money) of saying the quick chargers are probably 440V, i.e. service not typically available in residences.

Okay, we have to be careful here. There seems to be some confusion:

- Quick chargers mentioned by the article are 440V and up to 50 kW. No one is going to be installing those in personal residences. At first, there will be maybe 50 of those per state installed in major cities and on major freeways (e.g. between Los Angeles and San Francisco).

- Home chargers installed for owners of Leaf and Mini will be substantially less powerful, they will draw 10 kW tops, possibly much less.

- You don't need to run a separate circuit, you may be able charge from the dryer outlet. You do need a basic piece of hardware that plugs into the dryer outlet and a proprietary cable (SAE J1772) that runs from that hardware to the EV. That way your EV would be able to negotiate the current without burning out or blowing the fuses. The connector cable is designed with a number of safety features. For example, it is automatically depowered if it's not plugged in, or it's damaged (maybe because you ran it over while backing out of the garage the previous night).

 

[Averagesupernova]

Okay, we have to be careful here. There seems to be some confusion:

- Quick chargers mentioned by the article are 440V and up to 50 kW. No one is going to be installing those in personal residences. At first, there will be maybe 50 of those per state installed in major cities and on major freeways (e.g. between Los Angeles and San Francisco).

50 KW (actually KVA) transformers with single phase 240 volts is not at all uncommon in rural areas. If someone has the need and is willing to buy that amount of power, the supplier will see to it that the equipment is put in place to do so.

 

[russ_watters]

Also, the power company is required by law to provide you with a service to your house that meets any reasonable request. What is "reasonable" is defined by the law. So if a 400A service doesn't currently fit the definiton, the law could always be changed to occommodate this.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Also, the power company is required by law to provide you with a service to your house that meets any reasonable request. What is "reasonable" is defined by the law. So if a 400A service doesn't currently fit the definiton, the law could always be changed to occommodate this.

I would also like to point out that what is "reasonable" as defined by the law will likely vary from location to location. I don't doubt one bit that there are locations where a single phase 240 volt 50 KVA transformer at a residence would be above and beyond "reasonable".

 

[mheslep]

Also, the power company is required by law to provide you with a service to your house that meets any reasonable request. What is "reasonable" is defined by the law. So if a 400A service doesn't currently fit the definiton, the law could always be changed to occommodate this.

400A is common, I have it.

 

[mheslep]

... At first, there will be maybe 50 of those per state installed in major cities and on major freeways (e.g. between Los Angeles and San Francisco).

50 quick charge stations per state? I doubt it. Maybe in California. Look at the details: A Leaf quick charge is supposedly 80% of ~25kWh (100miles) in 30 mins, i.e. ~40 kW per charger. Half an hour wait means a rest station has to be built or collocated - bathrooms, food. Then nobody will tolerate waiting in line for a charge at a "quick charge" station, so 5-10 chargers have to be installed. Parking, etc. If the batteries improve in charge rate - to say 10 minutes ( LiFePO technology doesn't support this yet), then we have a 150kW charger required, per vehicle charge point. Further into the future, with say 200 mi/ 50kWh, 5 minute charge batteries, the service is 600kW per charge point!

What's needed is some kind fast battery exchange mechanism. There's a Berkely study showing wide spread acceptance of EVs in 10 years IF battery lease and exchange can be made to work, twice that time if not.

 

[dr dodge]

I am wondering who is going to pay for all the "charging pods" and who will stand good for the power bill. also, those connectors and cable don't look like they'd be any fun in parts of the world that have harsh winter conditions. Ice and snow packed into the connector on your car, then some "brainiak" gets out his truck key to dig ice out of the end and (insert the smell of bacon here)
people are scarey enough with gasoline

I say a lady "pressure wash" her trunk lid with about a gallon trying to muscle the hose to the wrong side of her car.

a "full service" fueling infrastructure would be much better (for in town) as it would control access and help with a minimum level of safety

dr

 

[mheslep]

I am wondering who is going to pay for all the "charging pods" and who will stand good for the power bill.

Same type of people who build and pay for all those gas stations: businesses. The bill is paid immediately when one charges (card swipe, or smart charger knows the smart car).

also, those connectors and cable don't look like they'd be any fun in parts of the world that have harsh winter conditions. Ice and snow packed into the connector on your car, then some "brainiak" gets out his truck key to dig ice out of the end and (insert the smell of bacon here)
people are scarey enough with gasoline

I say a lady "pressure wash" her trunk lid with about a gallon trying to muscle the hose to the wrong side of her car.

a "full service" fueling infrastructure would be much better (for in town) as it would control access and help with a minimum level of safety...

I expect the underlying theme of a thousand like minded posts is a powerful reluctance to give up that "I have made fire" feeling that goes with riding around on top a combustion engine. It's been that way for a 100 years, and it is not to be lightly. Possibly what's needed is a series of demonstrations where a large vehicle battery is catastrophically destroyed in a way that intentionally causes a large fireball, or even some Nikola Tesla like showmanship that adds substantial arcing. Think that will scare people off? Not a chance, with Hollywood exploding ten cars per second. Instead, a dramatic battery explosion will bring them (men anyway) on-board immediately.

On a rewatch of The Matrix the other night, it occurred to me Hollywood had exactly the same problem with vehicles of that dark and pessimistic future. Morpheus's ship could not simply be allowed to quietly electro-glide along, even though stealth was clearly a life and death requirement throughout the plot. They had to add in all those over the top arc effects to show off some Real Power (tm).

 

[dr dodge]

I am not being dismissing. The change can be good. But from a reality sort of sense, the logistics are going to be significant. In the current economic climate, how many business are going to borrow millions of dollars to put in service pods. gas stations do not make their money in fuel, its the beer cigs and chips. a card swipe pod on the street in town will have to make all the profit, loan interest, and principle back from what they "over charge" (sorry...pun) above the residential rates. I personally do NOT want my tax money spent on this, either.

dr

 

[gmax137]

I am not being dismissing. The change can be good. But from a reality sort of sense, the logistics are going to be significant. In the current economic climate, how many business are going to borrow millions of dollars to put in service pods. gas stations do not make their money in fuel, its the beer cigs and chips. a card swipe pod on the street in town will have to make all the profit, loan interest, and principle back from what they "over charge" (sorry...pun) above the residential rates.

I think you're oversimplifying things. There's lots of gas stations around here that sell nothing but gas. And guess what, they're the cheapest ... There may be a chicken - egg thing (between the cars and the charging stations), but once there is demand for a service (battery charging) there WILL be businesses that will provide it.

I personally do NOT want my tax money spent on this, either.

Has anyone said anything about the gov't using tax money for any of this infrastructure?

 

[mheslep]

I am not being dismissing. The change can be good. But from a reality sort of sense, the logistics are going to be significant. In the current economic climate, how many business are going to borrow millions of dollars to put in service pods.

Quite a few.
http://www.coulombtech.com/press_releases/release_20091214.php"
http://www.coulombtech.com/press_releases/release_20091207.php"
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/02/in-denmark-ambitious-plan-for-electric-cars/"
http://www.cnet.com.au/q-a-better-place-s-electric-car-plans-brilliant-or-nuts-339296126.htm"
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17912_3-10220414-72.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20"

Edit: Besides, this was all done once before. 1910 in the US saw charge spots all over the major cities. Hotels, etc. The cost of slow charge infrastructure, frankly, is trivial. Most of it is already in place in 2009, except for the last 10 feet. The financial hang up is in the batteries.

gas stations do not make their money in fuel, its the beer cigs and chips.

Exactly right. That's why they won't care whether they sell fuel, batteries, or electricity.

a card swipe pod on the street in town will have to make all the profit, loan interest, and principle back from what they "over charge" (sorry...pun) above the residential rates.

The same is true for the service connection to your residence. Appears street side, mass roll out charge spots cost ~$400-500 ea, installed.

I personally do NOT want my tax money spent on this, either.
dr

I don't want any more of my tax money spent on EVs than already is spent on subsidies for oil and gas.

 

[mgb_phys]

I am wondering who is going to pay for all the "charging pods"

With a 20-30min charging time and less infrastructure (no tanks or deliveries) the suggestion is that malls, supermakets and parking garages would offer charging to attract you to their store rather than the competitor. And since the cost of a charge is less than a parking mater in most cities they would probably include it free with some level of purchase.

then some "brainiak" gets out his truck key to dig ice out of the end and (insert the smell of bacon here)

If you proposed a gasoline engine today it would be laughed out of court.
You want people to carry around 10-15Gal of explosive fuel, inside a car and burn it in a hot engine !

 

[gmax137]

... they would probably include it free with some level of purchase.

Wishful thinking? Actually you probably know there's no such thing as 'free.' If the stores do include it 'no charge' (hahaha) they will just raise the prices on all their goods. After all, there's no reason to expect retailers to pick up the national burden for transportation energy cost...

 

[russ_watters]

Cost structure is an interesting issue. My electricity is up to about $.15/kwh now. But a large commercial user tends to pay around $.06-$.08. So They could charge you a healthy mark-up and it would still be cheaper than buying the power at home!

 

[Borek]

the biggest draws you ever see for household devices are 1500W

That can be a difference between you place and my place (I am in EU, more precisely in PL but I doubt it matters). To my left I have an electric heater 2 kW, in my kitchen I have 1800 W electric kettle, heater in my laundry machine is 2 kW (or at least it was 2 kW in the previous one, not sure about the one we bough this year). Hair dryers 2 kW are not uncommon. For many years I thought 2 kW is the limit, few years ago - after the plug has been fried - I was surprised to find out that heater in our dishwasher is actually a 3 kW unit. So much more than 1500 W you listed.

And I am talking specifically about 240V one phase devices, water heater in my bath is 18 kW, but it uses three phases supply, so it is in different category.

Not that it changes much in your calculation and conclusions.

 

[mgb_phys]

Wishful thinking? Actually you probably know there's no such thing as 'free.' If the stores do include it 'no charge' (hahaha) they will just raise the prices on all their goods. After all, there's no reason to expect retailers to pick up the national burden for transportation energy cost...

The retailers also light and heat (or air-condition) their stores 'for free'

Parking costs $1-5/hour in most cities but stores offer free parking which is losing them $1-5/customer.
Would you go to a mall that charged you for parking meters, if you did would you hurry out as quickly as possible rather than browse and buy.

A 25Kwh charge is costing them something around $1 at commercial power rates.
If you had an electric car and a certain store offered free 30min top-ups you are going to go there rather than the discount store?
And since its going to take 30mins to charge you are going to stay longer and buy a few $5 coffees

So double whipped no-foam espresso mocha lattes are going to pay for the nation's transport!

 

[russ_watters]

That can be a difference between you place and my place (I am in EU, more precisely in PL but I doubt it matters). To my left I have an electric heater 2 kW, in my kitchen I have 1800 W electric kettle, heater in my laundry machine is 2 kW (or at least it was 2 kW in the previous one, not sure about the one we bough this year). Hair dryers 2 kW are not uncommon. For many years I thought 2 kW is the limit, few years ago - after the plug has been fried - I was surprised to find out that heater in our dishwasher is actually a 3 kW unit. So much more than 1500 W you listed.

And I am talking specifically about 240V one phase devices, water heater in my bath is 18 kW, but it uses three phases supply, so it is in different category.

Not that it changes much in your calculation and conclusions.

Laundry machines don't run on standard circuits in the US. The standard power outlet is 120V/20A. Washers and dryers run at 240V and whatever amperage they need in dedicated circuits.

All of those other devices you listed (portable electric heater, coffee machine, hairdryer - microwave too) tend to run at exactly 1500w and I've never seen one above it.

And I am talking specifically about 240V one phase devices, water heater in my bath is 18 kW, but it uses three phases supply, so it is in different category.

Yes, those also run on special/dedicated circuits in the US, though at 240V, 1ph. In the US, residences don't get 3ph, they get two 180degree opposed 120v legs for 240 between them. I like the flexibility of it.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Laundry machines don't run on standard circuits in the US. The standard power outlet is 120V/20A. Washers and dryers run at 240V and whatever amperage they need in dedicated circuits.

I sure haven't seen any washing machines that run on anything except 120V. The code requires a dedicated 20 amp circuit for it. Most of the time standard outlets in the U.S. are 15 amp. Seldom any 120V circuits in a residence are greater than this excpet the laundry, one (maybe 2) in the kitchen, and I believe one for the bathroom. Electric clothes dryers have a four prong 240/120 volt plug. The heating element runs on 240V and the motor runs on 120V. I would imagine a gas dryer would run on 120V but could require a dedicated circuit.

 

[Borek]

The standard power outlet is 120V/20A.

That can be the reason. Standard here is 240V, so twice less amperage required.

 

[mgb_phys]

That can be the reason. Standard here is 240V, so twice less amperage required.

You can take 13A from an Eu socket, so 240V*13A = 3.1KW
In the US you can pull 15A from a 110V socket so around 1600W

Which is why it's hard to get electric kettles in the states and they take forever to boil water, which is why they drink coffee instead of tea, like civilized countries.

 

[dr dodge]

http://www.coulombtech.com/press_releases/release_20091214.php"
http://www.coulombtech.com/press_releases/release_20091207.php"
.[/URL]
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17912_3-10220414-72.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20"

just read the above articles, and all these are tied back to taxpayers money (follow the links)

I found a GEM charger for $600 on ebay. at a couple thousand of these for the mall, plus wiring costs, it would take a lot of sales in product to cover that cost. at the residential vs commercial rates, at 20 minutes a charge, it would take quite a bit of sales to cover these costs.
what is the range of those things when you turn on the seat warmers, defrosters, stereo, or AC...not vert good

honda just settled their lawsuit because the "rated" 51 mpg hybred was actually closer to 31.
I don't believe that we, as consumers, are getting the true "apple to apples" information
chevy was saying the volt got ~230mpg with creative math.

not cost effective yet

dr

 

[sophiecentaur]

Also, the power company is required by law to provide you with a service to your house that meets any reasonable request. What is "reasonable" is defined by the law. So if a 400A service doesn't currently fit the definiton, the law could always be changed to occommodate this.

Hang on a bit. Just changing the Law isn't suddenly going to magic a power distribution network that can handle everyone's extra vehicle charging loads. (Looking at the future, when 'everyone' is electric.)
Just think of the huge energy distribution system represented by the supplies to petrol stations and replacing a significant proportion of that with power via electrical cables. It's do-able, of course, but it will require a huge capital investment and needs some serious planning to handle peak loads. This will be particularly true when these new fast charging batteries start to come on stream and everyone demands a 2 minute top-up, whether at home or at the station down the road.

 

[mheslep]

Hang on a bit. Just changing the Law isn't suddenly going to magic a power distribution network that can handle everyone's extra vehicle charging loads. (Looking at the future, when 'everyone' is electric.)
Just think of the huge energy distribution system represented by the supplies to petrol stations and replacing a significant proportion of that with power via electrical cables. It's do-able, of course, but it will require a huge capital investment

The energy distribution system is already in place.

ScienceDaily (Dec. 14, 2006) — If all the cars and light trucks in the nation switched from oil to electrons, idle capacity in the existing electric power system could generate most of the electricity consumed by plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. A new study for the Department of Energy finds that "off-peak" electricity production and transmission capacity could fuel 84 percent of the country's 220 million vehicles if they were plug-in hybrid electrics...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1211221149.htm

and needs some serious planning to handle peak loads. This will be particularly true when these new fast charging batteries start to come on stream and everyone demands a 2 minute top-up, whether at home or at the station down the road.

Yes that is about power and at that level I agree not only is it not available now, it is never going to happen. Ubiquitous 2 minute top ups would mean a small 50MW power plant that runs only in bursts, placed on every corner, useable by every driver.

 

[sophiecentaur]

It is true that the main problem I foresee is that of Power, rather than Energy distribution.
I wonder whether a 'small', 50MW electrical power generating unit is efficient enough to cause less pollution than the original petrol powered vehicles. I thought the whole point of going electrical was to locate the energy conversion (generators) in suitable plces and to make them very efficient.
In any case, my point about needing enhanced domestic supplies is relevant and the problem is not soluble by just changing the Law.

 

[dr dodge]

A new study for the Department of Energy finds that "off-peak" electricity production

so as long as we are not charging during business hours it would handle it.
so you could charge easily at the mall. just have to do it at 2:00 in the morning...lol

dr

 

[gmax137]

...

I wonder whether a 'small', 50MW electrical power generating unit is efficient enough to cause less pollution than the original petrol powered vehicles. ...

I think this is a very interesting question - has this been discussed here or elsewhere? (trying not to hijack this thread...

edit - I recall mheslep (?) having a lot to say on this (?) maybe somewhere in the 20 pages of 'fuel saving thread' or was it somewhere else? There was a lot about practical comparisons of miles per gallon and kW-hr.

 

[sophiecentaur]

It would be interesting to know.
Certainly, the Great British Public (and other groups) seem to think that Electricity is, somehow, both cost-free and pollution-free.
Any new form of transport is bound to have environmental costs, one way or another.

 

[mgb_phys]

Certainly, the Great British Public (and other groups) seem to think that Electricity is, somehow, both cost-free and pollution-free.

That's not true.
Yes they want to shut down the large coal fired stations that supply a lot of the power but produce CO2
And obviously you don't want nuclear, cos nuclear is bad m'kay.
And gas is fine as long as you don't need want to transport LPG in tankers or build pipelines

Of course hydro would be good, as long as it doesn't involve flooding any farmland or wilderness.
Wind would be ideal, as long as the turbines aren't visible anywhere pretty, or anywhere that could affect birds, or offshore. And it's a pity that solar isn't really practical.

So as long as the power doesn't produce CO2 and doesn't affect the view, or farmers or birds or involve buying fuel from foreigners - then they are right behind electricity generation

 

[russ_watters]

I sure haven't seen any washing machines that run on anything except 120V. The code requires a dedicated 20 amp circuit for it. Most of the time standard outlets in the U.S. are 15 amp. Seldom any 120V circuits in a residence are greater than this excpet the laundry, one (maybe 2) in the kitchen, and I believe one for the bathroom. Electric clothes dryers have a four prong 240/120 volt plug. The heating element runs on 240V and the motor runs on 120V. I would imagine a gas dryer would run on 120V but could require a dedicated circuit.

Dang, you're right - just checked and most of my circuits are 15A. I have one that says "washer" and it is 20A/120V - That may be both the washer and dryer because I don't see one for the dryer. The heat is from propane, though. My kitchen general power circuit is 20A.

Too used to commercial where the minimum is 20A.

 

[russ_watters]

Hang on a bit. Just changing the Law isn't suddenly going to magic a power distribution network that can handle everyone's extra vehicle charging loads. (Looking at the future, when 'everyone' is electric.)

No, but it will force the cost and responsibility onto the power company instead of the consumer. The power company will just end up back-charging us through our electric bills, but the rates are regulated too...

 

[russ_watters]

That's not true.
Yes they want to shut down the large coal fired stations that supply a lot of the power but produce CO2
And obviously you don't want nuclear, cos nuclear is bad m'kay.
And gas is fine as long as you don't need want to transport LPG in tankers or build pipelines

It is true (in the US and I'd wage in the UK too), otherwise electric cars would never be getting all the press and environmentalist attention they are. In that other thread, the linked study showed an average 27% improvement in emissions by going from an average car to a full electric in the US. With the advent of hybrids as an alternative, there would be a net increase in pollution due to driving an electric car!

It is fine that they are in development because it will take decades for them to become ubiquitous, but coal power is a much bigger and not to mention much easier problem. And it is one that is pretty rarely talked about in the media and not real high on the list for environmentalists. And I bet this is true almost everywhere - heck, Germany decided a few years ago that they would get rid of all their nuclear plants and the result is an increase in coal power. They take credit for a reduction in CO2, though, because of the integration of East Germany.

 

[mgb_phys]

They take credit for a reduction in CO2, though, because of the integration of East Germany.

Germany have a new technique, they are reducing their CO2 emission to Kyoto levels by shipping their nasty lignite coal to Poland, burning it in Polish power stations and shipping the power back.

Most of their new domestic power generation is coming from a gas pipeline form Russia.

ps. I need to put irony warning in bold.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Dang, you're right - just checked and most of my circuits are 15A. I have one that says "washer" and it is 20A/120V - That may be both the washer and dryer because I don't see one for the dryer. The heat is from propane, though. My kitchen general power circuit is 20A.

Too used to commercial where the minimum is 20A.

Your post brought up something I had forgotten. A furnace such as gas or propane would require a dedicated 120V 20A circuit also. Your heat is from propane, I assume you mean the heat for the dryer right?

 

[mheslep]

It would be interesting to know.
Certainly, the Great British Public (and other groups) seem to think that Electricity is, somehow, both cost-free and pollution-free.
Any new form of transport is bound to have environmental costs, one way or another.

The point is that some have much less impact than others.

 

[OmCheeto]

Wow. How far do some of you have to drive to get to the mall?

Here are some calculations of my daily commute to and from work:

gas powered
Total distance: 26 miles (ref: odometer)
mpg: 26 mpg (ref: my log)
actual motive energy: 4 kwh (ref: chargecar)
energy consumed: 34.7 kwh (ref: http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/200mpgcar.htm" = 34.7 kwh(conversion widget))
efficiency: 0.116 (ref: 4/34.7)
total cost of trip: $2.60 (ref: sign at gas station)
current annual cost: $1000 (ref: pocketbook)

now, switching to electric
Total distance: 26 miles
actual motive energy: 4 kwh
energy consumed: 5 kwh(ref: http://www.evalbum.com/1137")
efficiency: 0.8
cost of a kwh: $0.11/kwh(ref: my electric bill)
total cost of trip: $0.55
potential annual cost: $210

annual savings: $790
which should be enough to cover the cost of installing a charging station in your garage.

charge time at each end: 20 minutes.(240v 32a = dryer plug)
or 40 minutes at home each night.

And I really think that those of you that routinely drive more than 200 miles per day might want to avoid electric cars. For the time being anyways.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm"
The charge time of most chargers is about 3 hours.

Or are there batteries out there that can accept a full charge faster than that, that I am not aware of?

 

[mheslep]

...
Or are there batteries out there that can accept a full charge faster than that, that I am not aware of?

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/battery-material-0311.html", though the point of this thread has been that fast charge batteries won't do you much good as the charging infrastructure required is impractical.

 

[Borek]

the point of this thread has been that fast charge batteries won't do you much good as the charging infrastructure required is impractical.

Which just made me thinking - what if the charging station has its own battery of batteries, which are charged all the time with more or less constant current? Sure, that means lower efficiency, at the same time it means almost constant load.