Coordinate Transformation & Jacobian Matrix

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of coordinate transformations and the Jacobian matrix in the context of vector spaces. Participants explore the definitions and relationships between transformation matrices, specifically focusing on the left and right matrices associated with coordinate changes, and the implications of these definitions in different contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a transformation from an old coordinate system to a new one, defining matrices BL and BR for the transformation of basis vectors and components of vectors.
  • Another participant asserts that the matrices CL and its inverse BL represent transformations in opposite directions, suggesting they are fundamentally the same in terms of their roles.
  • A different participant questions the assertion that CL and BL are the same, arguing that they are generally different matrices and highlighting the importance of matrix order and transposition in transformations.
  • This participant references a warning from a textbook about the potential for confusion arising from different definitions of change matrices, emphasizing the need for consistency in their application.
  • A later reply confirms the previous participant's interpretation, suggesting that the matrices could be seen as playing opposite roles if the labels of the coordinate systems are swapped.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the equivalence of the matrices CL and BL, with some asserting they are fundamentally the same while others argue they are distinct. The discussion remains unresolved as differing perspectives on the definitions and implications of the Jacobian matrix persist.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the definitions of the Jacobian matrix can vary among sources, leading to potential confusion. The discussion highlights the importance of understanding the context and consistency in applying these definitions.

Rasalhague
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Is the following correct, as far as it goes?

Suppose I have a vector space V and I'm making a transformation from one coordinate system, "the old system", with coordinates xi, to another, "the new system", with coordinates yi. Where i is an index that runs from 1 to n.

Let ei denote the coordinate basis for the old system, and e'i the coordinate basis for the new system.

I can define matrices BL and BR (where subscript L and R stand for "left" and "right") such that

B_L \begin{bmatrix} \vdots \\ \textbf{e}_i \\ \vdots \end{bmatrix} = \begin{bmatrix} \vdots \\ \textbf{e}'_i \\ \vdots \end{bmatrix}

\begin{bmatrix} \cdots & \textbf{e}_i & \cdots \end{bmatrix} B_R = \begin{bmatrix} \cdots & \textbf{e}'_i & \cdots \end{bmatrix}

and likewise matrices CL and CR, replacing the basis vectors in the above definitions with components of vectors in (the underlying set of) V.

And

C_L = \left ( C_R \right )^T = \begin{bmatrix}<br /> \frac{\partial y^1}{\partial x^1} &amp; \cdots &amp; \frac{\partial y^1}{\partial x^n} \\ <br /> \vdots &amp; \ddots &amp; \vdots \\ <br /> \frac{\partial y^n}{\partial x^1} &amp; \cdots &amp; \frac{\partial y^n}{\partial x^n} <br /> \end{bmatrix}

and

\left ( C_L \right )^{-1} = B_L = \left ( B_R \right )^T = \begin{bmatrix}<br /> \frac{\partial x^1}{\partial y^1} &amp; \cdots &amp; \frac{\partial x^1}{\partial y^n} \\ <br /> \vdots &amp; \ddots &amp; \vdots \\ <br /> \frac{\partial x^n}{\partial y^1} &amp; \cdots &amp; \frac{\partial x^n}{\partial y^n} <br /> \end{bmatrix}.

And some people (e.g. Wolfram Mathworld, Berkley & Blanchard: Calculus) define the Jacobian matrix of this transformation as

J \equiv C_L \equiv \frac{\partial \left ( y^1,...,y^n \right )}{\partial \left ( x^1,...,x^n \right )}

while others (e.g. Snider & Davis: Vector Analysis) define it as

J \equiv \left ( C_L \right )^{-1} \equiv \frac{\partial \left ( x^1,...,x^n \right )}{\partial \left ( y^1,...,y^n \right )}.
 
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They are really the same thing. Your CL transforms from the "x_i" coordinates system to the "yj" coordinate system while CL-1, of course, goes the other way, transforming from the "yj" coordinate system to the "xi" coordinate system.
 
I don't understand how they're "really the same thing". For a given coordinate transformation, won't CL generally be a different matrix from its inverse BL? Also, changing a subscript on one of these matrices from L to R or vice versa transposes it, and in general a matrix is not the same thing as its transpose.

Experimenting with the transformation from 2d Cartesian to plane polar coordinates confirms that using the wrong matrices, or the right ones in the wrong order, gives the wrong answer. In fact in this thread, I did make a mistake (see #4), and if I'd done the multiplication correctly it wouldn't have given the required answer.

I'm thinking if they were literally the same, there'd be no need for Griffel's "Warning. There are two ways to define the change matrix. In our definition, the columns are the B'-components of the B vectors. Some authors define it with B and B' interchanged, giving a matrix which is the inverse of ours. The two versions of the theory look slightly different, but they are equivalent. It does not matter which version is used, provided itis used consistently. Using formulas from one version in a calculation from the other version will give the wrong answers" (Linear Algebra and its Applications, Vol. 2, p. 11).

But maybe you only meant that they're the same sort of thing, or that if we swapped the labels "old" and "new", the same matrices would be playing opposite roles.
 
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Rasalhague said:
But maybe you only meant that they're the same sort of thing, or that if we swapped the labels "old" and "new", the same matrices would be playing opposite roles.
Yes, this is correct.
 

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