Anger Neurons

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Many crimes and murder were committed because of uncontrollable anger. For example, I heard the news the other day about an ex-cop who shot a mother and his son because of argument. He will spend time in jail, but just before committing the crime couldn't he have thought he would live the rest of his life in jail? What neural circuits and networks are related to anger? More specifically, can you be angry but not feel it? Because if the feeling of anger in the brain can be suppressed, then you can be angry but not feel it, and this would lesson or eliminate violence in society.

I want to know what it would take to silence the feeling of anger in the brain, yet still have anger. We need this in the world now.
 

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  • #2
Lord Jestocost
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"Sometimes, you have to get angry to get things done."

Ang Lee
 
  • #3
256bits
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Many crimes and murder were committed because of uncontrollable anger
That is the 'fight or flight' response run amok.

Anger management is sometimes helpful I suppose.
Or some drug to make people feel 'pathetic'.
 
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  • #4
pinball1970
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Many crimes and murder were committed because of uncontrollable anger. For example, I heard the news the other day about an ex-cop who shot a mother and his son because of argument. He will spend time in jail, but just before committing the crime couldn't he have thought he would live the rest of his life in jail? What neural circuits and networks are related to anger? More specifically, can you be angry but not feel it? Because if the feeling of anger in the brain can be suppressed, then you can be angry but not feel it, and this would lesson or eliminate violence in society.

I want to know what it would take to silence the feeling of anger in the brain, yet still have anger. We need this in the world now.
The brain is complicated and there are millions of years of evolution behind the genes that built it.

@256 bits mentioned flight of fight in response to a stress and below is the link regarding the cascade of hormones involved.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight... response,described by Walter Bradford Cannon.

However if you really want to see how this can take an animal over when all sense and reason goes out the window, from calm to pure visceral feral mayhem then see the below.

It is best with head phones I think.


Is this flight fight or a mixture of both in rapid succession? The ex-cop could have been angered out of his mind, chemicals pumping, trying to calm himself, rethinking what she said and did more chemicals till….explosion and to hell with the consequences.


Months of anger management verses 7 million years of evolution and everyone will react to a situation differently based on genetics, memory/ Previous experience link to the situation etc



 
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  • #5
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Our body retains from the animal kingdom the nervous system for fight or flight, no doubt about that. But with humans high advanced cortex or mind, they can be angry and can feel anger even without fight or flight trigger. Here can one distinguish between having anger and "feeling" anger? If you can remove the "feeling" of anger then you are much less angrier, right?

What is the neural network for having anger and feeling anger (both in the long term)? Are they separate? This is different the more immediate adrenaline rush of fight or flight.
 
  • #6
Fervent Freyja
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More specifically, can you be angry but not feel it? Because if the feeling of anger in the brain can be suppressed, then you can be angry but not feel it, and this would lesson or eliminate violence in society.

What would statistics for murder and crime look like if males committed them at the same rates as females?

Women already deal with their anger in such a way that they murder and commit crimes at much lesser rates universally.
 
  • #7
Fra
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Many crimes and murder were committed because of uncontrollable anger. For example, I heard the news the other day about an ex-cop who shot a mother and his son because of argument. He will spend time in jail, but just before committing the crime couldn't he have thought he would live the rest of his life in jail? What neural circuits and networks are related to anger? More specifically, can you be angry but not feel it? Because if the feeling of anger in the brain can be suppressed, then you can be angry but not feel it, and this would lesson or eliminate violence in society.

I want to know what it would take to silence the feeling of anger in the brain, yet still have anger. We need this in the world now.
Usually anger is an emotion, so i am not sure what "beeing angry but not feeling angry" would mean, (probably does not make sense). Getting aroused (ie high symphatetic activation) without anger however, is possible.

Why you get angry may depend on several things.
To get angry but not act out aggressively, is a matter of impulse control. Some "conditions" is disorders is manifested by clinically reduced impulse control. It can also be verified by brain scans, where one can see that the pathwats in the brain have lower activation in subjects with poor impulse control. Most people get angry at times, but not everyone get aggressive.

Impulse control can be measured independently of "anger". There are classic tasks like Go/No Go tasks when you should act fast, but not too fast to make the wrong decision. There are medications used to target impulsitivty(for example dopamine-antagonists), and those that target anxiety(ssri) which may be a factor for sometimes getting angry in the first place.

/Fredrik
 
  • #8
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Let me reframe the question. First quoting something.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/feeling-our-emotions/

"
Feeling Our Emotions
According to noted neurologist Antonio R. Damasio, joy or sorrow can emerge only after the brain registers physical changes in the body"

"MIND: You differentiate between feelings and emotions. How so?

Damasio: In everyday language we often use the terms interchangeably. This shows how closely connected emotions are with feelings. But for neuroscience, emotions are more or less the complex reactions the body has to certain stimuli. When we are afraid of something, our hearts begin to race, our mouths become dry, our skin turns pale and our muscles contract. This emotional reaction occurs automatically and unconsciously. Feelings occur after we become aware in our brain of such physical changes; only then do we experience the feeling of fear."

Is this also true for anger? That is.

"Feelings occur after we become aware in our brain of such physical changes; only then do we experience the feeling of anger."

Meaning the brain alone without rest of body can't feel anger?
 
  • #9
jim mcnamara
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You are making assumptions. In a sense you are confusing proprioception with emotional awareness.

This topic is more psychological and cultural than physiological - as @Fervent Freyja pointed out clearly, thank you.

Assume what she said is verifiably correct. Which you conveniently overlook. Then there are no "neurons" that have a direct physiological connection to anger pereception common to all humans. The only other valid avenue to consider is mental illness. That often does involve a specific biochemical pathway, neurotransmitter, or pathology in a group of neurons.

This answers the neurotransmitter question on the initiation of anger:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2435345/
However, heredity and environment (diet, constant fear, deprivation, etc.) alter levels and hence, responses, of these molecules in a given subject.

This discusses cultural parameters for anger management, which is at the very edge of what PF can deal with:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992431/
This does not turn off/on anger management, like a switch, it just sets culturally determined limits on acting out anger before there are severe and physically dangerous social consequences

You have gotten some answers. Please do not push the limits.

Because the topic is "edgy" and qualified PF mentors do not exist (Translation: mentors cannot effectively deal with answers that are speculative psychology) then this thread will be locked if we keep on speculating.
 
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  • #10
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You are making assumptions. In a sense you are confusing proprioception with emotional awareness.

This topic is more psychological and cultural than physiological - as @Fervent Freyja pointed out clearly, thank you.

Assume what she said is verifiably correct. Which you conveniently overlook. Then there are no "neurons" that have a direct physiological connection to anger pereception common to all humans. The only other valid avenue to consider is mental illness. That often does involve a specific biochemical pathway, neurotransmitter, or pathology in a group of neurons.

This answers the neurotransmitter question on the initiation of anger:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2435345/
However, heredity and environment (diet, constant fear, deprivation, etc.) alter levels and hence, responses, of these molecules in a given subject.

This discusses cultural parameters for anger management, which is at the very edge of what PF can deal with:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992431/
This does not turn off/on anger management, like a switch, it just sets culturally determined limits on acting out anger before there are severe and physically dangerous social consequences

You have gotten some answers. Please do not push the limits.

Because the topic is "edgy" and qualified PF mentors do not exist (Translation: mentors cannot effectively deal with answers that are speculative psychology) then this thread will be locked if we keep on speculating.

Im not speculating. I just want to know if Damasio who is neuroscientist is correct (see last message). So lets just focus on Damasio.
 
  • #11
Fra
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First, I will just note that now i see what you mean! It is worth noting also that the words emotion and feeling, actually translates to the same word in swedish, so i misinterpreted this first.

But now i see you mean - the difference between the somewhat "lower" unconscious emotions, and "higher" conscious awareness of them, like jim mentioned.

From the perspective of "decision making" emotions seem to serve an evolutionary roles, sometimes bypassing the fuse may have a survival value as cognitive processing takes more time.

Instead of thinking about the brain vs rest of the body - how about perhaps considering the limbic system vs prefrontal cortext. How about "emotion anger" are processed by a quicker limbic system, and "feeling angry" by the slower prefrontal cortex.

Old times lobotomy, partly surgically disconnected the PFC.

/Fredrik
 
  • #12
When the subject of an AI apocalypse comes up I always point out that most of what we call "bad" behaviour is the result of the bath of hormones our brains swim in like adrenaline for anger (something robots don't need to worry about). Everybody has a different level of tolerance to these hormones so it makes sense that some are physically les able to resist anger
Our systems of etiquette, morality and law were set up in times when we were unaware of the realities of mental health and our emotions. It's all a bit arbitrary since anger in one place is anathema but it is actually expected in others and if you don't show it tongues wag. Deep down we are still upright apes imprisoned by our simian past.
 
  • #13
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Let's focus on Damasio and neuroscience, and not on philosophy, psychology or speculation which I don't have time either for these (also so this thread won't be locked prematurely).

How popular is Damasio distinction between emotion and feeling as far as neuroscience is concerned?

Do all other neuroscientists have the same views? Where did they vary?

If they vary. Please give definition of their "emotion" and "feeling"

For Damasio, it's like this:

The nature of feelings: evolutionary and neurobiological origins | Nature Reviews Neuroscience

"Feelings are mental experiences of body states. They signify physiological need (for example, hunger), tissue injury (for example, pain), optimal function (for example, well-being), threats to the organism (for example, fear or anger) or specific social interactions (for example, compassion, gratitude or love). Feelings constitute a crucial component of the mechanisms of life regulation, from simple to complex. Their neural substrates can be found at all levels of the nervous system, from individual neurons to subcortical nuclei and cortical regions. "
 
  • #14
256bits
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  • #15
Laroxe
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To be honest there are serious problems about trying to explain complex human behaviours in terms of anatomy and physiology. Its an emotional state that is a reaction to some events and a motive to behave and emotional states cannot be understood as separate from other cognitive functions, in fact its their job to alter the way we think. It is clearly related to anxiety summed up in the idea of fight or flight, in fact one way of thinking about anger is a response to a perceived attack, in Latin both words are derived from the word to choke or strangle.
When you think about all of these issues it rapidly becomes clear that perceptual systems, attention, appraisal systems, memory, self image etc are all potentially involved. Then there are the physiological arousal systems to consider, all interacting in a dynamic way.
So what parts of the brain are involved, well just about all of them really.
The generally high cost of the effects of anger on society does mean that there has been a great deal of research attempting to explain its features, while at the same time the negative value associated with it has meant that much of it has little value. Currently I believe that the best explanatory framework was developed by Leonard Berkowitz who built on previous work, its described rather catchily as A cognitive-neoassociation theory of aggression. It seems to have the best predictive value in research and the model is far more useful than any from the neurosciences.
Really any answers are going to be qualified, people are like that. :)

 

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