Beta Decay, how can baryons produce Leptons ?

[JPC]

this :
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/particles/imgpar/feynm5.gif ??

 

[malawi_glenn]

well, more detalied ones.. I thought you know how to draw Feynman diagrams for QCD...

personally I don't have time to find or draw them for you (Dont think Blechman have the time too), trust Blechman =)

 

[JPC]

But when you have time can you send me the url where i can find the specific one please ?

 

[malawi_glenn]

why not just wait til you take particle physics course?

 

[JPC]

because in france if i want to do a such program i need to first be accepted in the top engineering schools (in France you we also call schools the sort of good universities).

And to be accepted into these, i must do 2 years of what we call here ' scientific prepa', its like you study maths and physics, with loads of exercises, loads of revisions, a very tough program.
And then at the end you can pass a contest, and the schools will look at the your score, and they will all try to take the best elements (like for the top one 'Polytechnique', out of 40 persons who do scientific prepa, only 1 is accepted) (for second rate ones, something like 15) (and the 24 ones left have to end up in medium schools)

And its just after, if you at least end up in second rate schools, that you can actually start to study things like particule physics, ect

And, right now, I am in 'Terminale ' (12th grade), so if i ever get to learn all of this, its in 2.5 years.

But if i manage to do all those studies, i would like to work in USA, be able to use more modern equipment, NASA sounds interesting, but its hard for a non-american person to work in NASA, unless if you are a universal genius.

 

[malawi_glenn]

Ok.

If you want, we can give you things to do self studies. You need quite much for studiyng particle physics. I can recommend getting a copy of "Introduction to Quantum Mechanics (2nd Edition) by David J. Griffiths " And when you have worked it through and done problems in it and so on, you get "Introduction to Elementary Particles " by same author, 2nd edition comess in march, so hold on, it is regarded as the best intro book in particle physics.

 

[jtbell]

If you want to work in particle physics, NASA is not the place to go. They don't do particle physics (at least not much of it). Particle physics researchers in the USA are mostly hired by universities. Some also work for the laboratories where the accelerators and detectors are actually located (Fermilab, Stanford, Brookhaven).

 

[vanesch]

And its just after, if you at least end up in second rate schools, that you can actually start to study things like particule physics, ect

And, right now, I am in 'Terminale ' (12th grade), so if i ever get to learn all of this, its in 2.5 years.

Although "polytechnique" is probably a good place to go to make a lot of money, it is probably not the best place in the world to do particle physics! I'd say, if you want to do particle physics, try to go to "normale" (just as hard to get into as poly probably). They'll turn you into a true nerd You'll be way smarter, but you'll make less money

And then, there are of course the universities where you can go to, to learn the stuff. I think there are some good courses around... but of course, coming from a university, the chances of really getting a job in particle physics will be remote, as compared to a "normalien".

However, you should really seriously think about what you want to do with your life. I for one, left particle physics because I was disappointed in the day-to-day work. It doesn't have much to do with what you read in the scientific journals, and the things I really did was second-rate computer science, electronic engineering and a little bit of physics. I did more sophisticated things outside the field actually.
Also, the timing might be not right. LHC will start taking data soon, and by the time you'll get in (in 4-5 years), the hottest pieces will be taken already (Higgs, supersymmetry, new stuff ?). It's my experience that smaller scale science and engineering is actually much more rewarding (unless you're really a hot shot), because you can tackle a much broader range of problems and challenges, and you can take responsability for a bigger chunk of a project. But ok, that's my opinion.

 

[JPC]

no but what you don't see , is that in France, universities are not at all the same as in USA.
A university in france is not of a very good level, and a lot of people who do universities don't get a job.

And my parents are not rich enough to pay me a University In USA. Well they could if France seriously decreased its taxes.

But if i cannot do particule Physics, i am also considering working on Space ingeneering (here i think the best would be NASA) (example : working on the reactors of the new shuttles)

Anyways, i still have 2.5 years to choose what i want to do.

Right now i am just getting informed about both options.
And maybe i'll be interesting by another option in 2.5 years, who knows, but it will be scientific that's for sure

 

[blechman]

Alright, JPC, I can't give you advice on what to do with your life (I'm having enough trouble of that myself!), nor do I know much about the status of physics research in France. But I can tell you what is involved in studying particle physics. Of course, this is STRICTLY my humble opinion and personal experience, so don't take my suggestions too literally - everyone's different, after all. This is how things would go in a perfect world:

(1) The first step is to get a good grounding in general physics, including classical mechanics, E&M, Quantum mechanics and stat mech. This is the core of the field, and if you have any desire to contribute to *any* subfield of physics, you must have a firm grip on these things. They permeate all the fields of "modern physics". Not to mention, that if you get a solid background in these things, you can probably go on to do almost anything (engineering, space science, etc).

(2) While you're studying these things, read a bunch of popular science books. Get hold of "Scientific American" or "Physics Today" or your favorite science magazine. As you read more of these books/articles along with your studies in (1), you will begin to understand more and more of how to think correctly, and the kind of research that is done in the field. If you can go to public lectures or seminars, you should do that too. If wherever you go has opportunities for research projects, try to get one.

(3) Once you have a solid background in these things, get an introductory book on particle physics. Zee's "QFT in a Nutshell" is good; so is Griffiths "Intro to Particle Physics". I emphasize that these books will be of limited use to you if you do not take my advice in (1)!

(4) Now begin to study the subject in earnest, with Peskin & Schroder's text, or an equivalent. Usually, this doesn't happen until you get to grad school.

This is the long-term program that you would follow if you want to become a good particle physicist. It's not an easy road, taking typically something like 10 years of school work past secondary school.

As far as affordability: you should check out financial aid opportunities at US universities. Sometimes they can offer you fellowships. I don't know much about how to proceed as a foreign student, but do some reseach, call (or email, it's cheaper!) the financial aid offices of a bunch of places, and see what you can do. That's what I did when I was looking for undergrad schools.

Good luck!

 

[vanesch]

no but what you don't see , is that in France, universities are not at all the same as in USA.
A university in france is not of a very good level, and a lot of people who do universities don't get a job.

But then polytechnique and normale are very good, and even others like arts et metiers, or mines. If I were you, I'd try to do everything to get into a "prepa". In France, it is the way to go. I would even be picky in *which* prepa, because not all are the same. Apply at different places. The first years of university are not very good I've heard. Give yourself all the chances you can, because the French system is such, that about all decisions are taken in the 18-21 year span. So full throttle ahead from now on! Put all other aspects of your life aside for a few years.

In 2 years, if you're successful, you will have several options open, and you'll be more informed by then.

 

[JPC]

Zee's "QFT in a Nutshell" is good; so is Griffiths "Intro to Particle Physics".

But which explains better ? I mean which is less made of long sentences, but more scientific sentences, and better illustrated ?

But then polytechnique and normale are very good, and even others like arts et metiers, or mines. If I were you, I'd try to do everything to get into a "prepa". In France, it is the way to go. I would even be picky in *which* prepa, because not all are the same. Apply at different places. The first years of university are not very good I've heard. Give yourself all the chances you can, because the French system is such, that about all decisions are taken in the 18-21 year span. So full throttle ahead from now on! Put all other aspects of your life aside for a few years.

In 2 years, if you're successful, you will have several options open, and you'll be more informed by then.

I know, that's what i am aiming at doing. I am looking to PCSI in one prepa in the top 15 in France for PCSI//////////////PS : sorry for late reply, but i had lots of work this week

 

[malawi_glenn]

Both are good intro books on QFT / particle physics. But just because they are intro books, they are not easy.

Griffiths is well know for his pedagocical skills.

 

[JPC]

then i should choose 'intro to particle physics' then ?
btw, i can't find it on google book search beta
got a url or a ISBN ?

 

[malawi_glenn]

then i should choose 'intro to particle physics' then ?

It is probably more suited for you, if you want to know fenomenological particle physics.

 

[jtbell]

got a url or a ISBN ?

Search for it on amazon.com. It will tell you the ISBN.

The title is actually "Introduction to Elementary Particles," by the way. But I found it easily with a search for "Griffiths particle physics."

 

[JPC]

Ok found it , thx
I'll buy it during the summer holidays, after i graduate
but didnt know a book could be worth 100 USD

 

[malawi_glenn]

wait til march -08 when the new edition comes. this book is from middle of the 80's. So it is quite expensive so you also want the newst stuff in particle physics right? ;)

 

[JPC]

Yeah ok
but do you have an idea of the mean average price ?

 

[malawi_glenn]

Just search the major book shops on the web.

www.alibris.com
www.amazon.com

etc.

 

[blechman]

but didnt know a book could be worth 100 USD

HAHAH! Sorry, JPC, in my experience, that's cheap!

 

[malawi_glenn]

HAHAH! Sorry, JPC, in my experience, that's cheap!

indeed :)

 

[JPC]

Why, how expensive some books can be ?