News Breaking Down the 2016 POTUS Race Contenders & Issues

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Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are currently the leading candidates for the 2016 presidential election, with their character and qualifications being significant issues among voters. The crowded field includes 36 declared Republican candidates and 19 declared Democratic candidates, with many others considering runs. Major topics of discussion include nationalism versus internationalism and the stability of the nation-state system versus global governance. Recent polls show Trump as the front-runner, although his support has decreased, while Carly Fiorina has gained traction following strong debate performances. The election cycle is characterized as unusual, with many candidates and shifting public opinions on key issues.
  • #1,451
russ_watters said:
Whatever your answer, here's another angle to consider: when the election is over, Trump doesn't concede - ever - and *nothing* happens, shouldn't that improve peoples' faith in the strength of our system?

Sure, this could happen, especially if the election is a blow out (which it might be).
However, if it was a close election, it could matter. Remember the Republican organized riot when ballots were being recounted in Florida?
Further more it sets a precedent for the future when times might not be a blow out.

russ_watters said:
How so?

Gore challenged specific, very close results, through the courts. When the Supreme Court made its totally political decision (which it even claimed should not be used as a precedent in subsequent court decisions, indicative to me that even they thought it was stupid), Gore then conceded in a rather nice way.
Trump just wants to say rigged because his small ego can't tolerate the thought that he might have lost.
 
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  • #1,452
[resubscribe]

I see that there's a bit of "crazy" talk going on.

Let me add a bit to that.
And hopefully, subtract some:

About 30 minutes after I posted the following:

OmCheeto said:
...
Her response was interesting; "I have been watching the corruption of the Clintons unfold for years. I don't have to dissect every breath they take."
...

an article popped up in my Facebook feed, with the following quote:

“I don’t care what facts I read, Hillary is a crook and nothing will change my mind.”

Now, call me paranoid, but it looked to me like someone was watching what I said here at PF, googled it, and fed it back to Facebook, for me to see.
They are watching us...

But anyways, the article was titled "You Know These Are All Debunked Hillary Conspiracy Theories, Right?", put out by some new website, that I'd never heard about before, which of course made me even more suspicous. So I decided to check their reference:

The Psychology of Conspiracy Theories
We're all conspiracy theorists, some of us just hide it better than others.
Posted Oct 24, 2015
Rob Brotherton Ph.D [University of London]​

...contrary to some tinfoil-based stereotypes, conspiracy theorists aren't just a few kooks with bizarre ideas about shape-shifting reptiles secretly running society. They lurk among us. They are us. We all have innately suspicious minds.
...

Wait? What? My sister, and all the people I disagree with here at PF, aren't crazy?
That's just crazy talk. (And everyone knows, that Ph.ds, are reealy full of themselves, and will try and manipulate our non-Ph.d minds...)

Anyways, I delved further. (At the recommendation of the author, of course):

...In the mean time, take a look at ConspiracyPsychology.com, where you'll find posts by me and my fellow conspiracy-psychologists Mike Wood, Dan Jolley, and Christopher Thresher-Andrews.

Ah, Ha! Rob has a friend who corroborates my beliefs! Yay!
Conspiracy theories and the campaign to Leave the EU
Posted on June 21, 2016 by Daniel Jolley

...conspiracy theories, politically, are generally found in the realm of the right and not the left.
...

Which, of course, as a layman, had my mind jumping all over the place, as Rob had just said that right-wingers were neither stupid, nor crazy.
And I've always considered them as such.
Which kind of developed into a cognitive dissonance.
Which made me, for anyone who has seen Drakkith's signature, come up with simplistic metaphor:

Right wingers, are people who have never liked brussel sprouts, and never will.
Left wingers, are people open minded enough, to try poison.

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  • #1,453
BillTre said:
Sure, this could happen, especially if the election is a blow out (which it might be).
However, if it was a close election, it could matter. Remember the Republican organized riot when ballots were being recounted in Florida?
No, I don't. And whether your characterization of the event is accurate or not, my failure to even remember it should tell you all you need to know of its imoprtance.
Further more it sets a precedent for the future when times might not be a blow out.

Gore...
Gore also has brown hair and white skin while Trump has yellow hair and orange skin. To the "how so?" question I added "so what?", perhaps while you were replying. My point is that in order for the argument that there are differences between Gore and Trump to be meaningful, the differences themselves have to be meaningful. They have to go somewhere/lead to something.
 
  • #1,454
russ_watters said:
No, I don't. And whether your characterization of the event is accurate or not, my failure to even remember it should tell you all you need to know of its imoprtance.
This is a very self-centered statement. Nothing matters if you don't remember it?
wikipedia on the riot
 
  • #1,455
BillTre said:
This is a very self-centered statement. Nothing matters if you don't remember it?
wikipedia on the riot
Yes to both, at least in this specific case. I paid a lot of attention to that election and its aftermath. Like a war, a riot's impact can be measured by how many people remember it and this one is a nothingburger (as indicated as well by the lack of current discussion and a short, thin wiki entry).
 
  • #1,456
"Socialism needs two legs upon which to stand, both a left and a right. While seeming to be in direct opposition to one another, they both march in the same direction."

Proctor

"Left wing, right wing, same evil bird." Source unknown (too lazy to look it up).

I've watched the Republicans and the Democrats run this country into the commode for the last 40 years. They can all kiss my ...
 
  • #1,457
BillTre said:
Remember the Republican organized riot when ballots were being recounted in Florida?
No i don't. I lived in the Miami area then so it must not have amounted to much.
Can you link to some mainstream news coverage ? Surely Evo will allow that transgression of "current-ness" in the spirit of backing claims.
Miami network stations then were WTVJ, WSVN, WPBT, WPLG .
 
  • #1,458
BillTre said:
Several of the posters here seem to be holding to a poorly based hope that the poles are wrong about Trump losing.
You are correct. It's just a hope. I'm well aware of the odds. But don't get me wrong, I'm not a supporter of Trump the man. There's more to consider than the character and personality of the candidates. The way this man has run his campaign is nothing short of a tragedy for the people who had hoped "finally, there is a chance for the kind of change that America needs". But alas, it is probably not to be.
 
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  • #1,459
jim hardy said:
No i don't. I lived in the Miami area then so it must not have amounted to much.
Can you link to some mainstream news coverage ? Surely Evo will allow that transgression of "current-ness" in the spirit of backing claims.
Miami network stations then were WTVJ, WSVN, WPBT, WPLG .

Please see the references in the link.
 
  • #1,460
BillTre said:
Please see the references in the link.
did that before asking.
 
  • #1,461
BillTre said:
About 1/2 of the article discusses the issues of poling errors, their possible sources, and how the US election differs from the Brexit vote.

I'm not convinced. The central point seems to be that the Clinton-Trump gap is larger than the Brexit error, so it doesn't matter.

The Brexit polls were outside the stated range of error. I think a reasonable conclusion is that we haven't yet learned how to accurately estimate the range of error in polling under these conditions. If we strip the politics away, suppose somebody were measuring resistances in a resistor, had a history of good luck with the technique, but with a different type of resistor discovered difference between his result and the true result was much larger than the quoted error. If he then measured a second resistor would you believe it if he told you:
  1. The difference between the 2nd result and the true result can be no larger than difference between the 1st result and the true result?
  2. The difference between the 2nd result and the true result must be in the same direction 1st result and the true result?
Do these statements become more valid if they support a preferred outcome?
 
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  • #1,462
gleem said:
But Trump's unwillingness to concede is far different than Gore's Remember the vote in Florida started out early to indicate that Bush was winning (So Gore decided to concede - but not publicly at that point) but later became too close to call causing Gore to renege on his concession. He did concede publicly after "chad gate" . and legal sparing with Bush.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...the-way-trump-is-undermining-the-process-now/

Also, Gore didn't spend the month before the election whining about how it was sooooo rigged, and urging supporters to volunteer as poll-watchers to help ferret out the "riggers".

Trump's tactics are IMO pure political posturing, for stirring up FUD among his supporters. After the election, he can mount legal challenges at the state level, in states that he loses, but he's going to look silly if the margin isn't like Florida in 2000 and he can't present any evidence of wrongdoing.
 
  • #1,463
jtbell said:
Also, Gore didn't spend the month before the election whining about how it was sooooo rigged
Absence of whining would typically lie with the one doing the rigging.

Gore's action threw the outcome of the US Presidential election into chaos for some months. Trump's comments are only that, comments.
 
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  • #1,464
mheslep said:
Absence of whining would typically lay with the one doing the rigging.

Begs the question did Gore expect something.from FL outside a fair vote?

mheslep said:
Gore's action threw the outcome of the US Presidential election into chaos for some months. Trump's comments are only that, comments.

Chaos is hardly a word that should be used for the 2000 challenge per se but could be used to describe the differing recounting procedures in Florida counties. .. Clearly a 500 vote margin out of 6 million certainly would have been challenged by any candidate if it would have possibly favored him/her. And 36 days is hardly months. I think Gore was very gracious and eloquently delivered in his concession speech accepting the USSC's decision the next day. Will Trump accept even a clear Clinton victory? The suspense heightens.
 
  • #1,466
mheslep said:
Absence of whining would typically lay lie with the one doing the rigging.
That's assuming there's some sort of rigging going on.

Gore's action threw the outcome of the US Presidential election into chaos for some months. Trump's comments are only that, comments.
Right now, they're only comments, and one would hope that Trump would have the maturity to not be a sore loser after the election. Alas, based on his track record, I wouldn't be surprised if those hopes were unfounded.
 
  • #1,467
Recounts are a part of the voting counting process. In some states they are triggered automatically if the vote is within certain parameters of closeness. In some cases, candidates can get a recount started if it is outside the range for automatic triggering. In some of those cases those requesting the recount bear the cost of it.
Once the recounts are done and the vote is "certified" (or whatever it might be called), then its normally the time for the concession. This is what Gore did.

I certainly would not have a problem with Trump contesting a close election and wanting a recount, but that's not what he is implying.
He has been claiming that there will be thousands (or maybe millions) of fraudulent ballots cast from the inner cities (code for blacks etc.).
This is just another deception for his easily (mis-)lead followers. A recent study of the number of false ballots cast between 2000 and 2016 found 31 cases of voter fraud out of more than a billion votes cast.
This kind of thing is just another Republican excuse to go ahead with their own more vile and much more widespread form of voter fraud, which working as hard as they can to dis-enfranchise any group of people (blacks, other minorities, etc.) whom they think will vote against them.
 
  • #1,468
jim hardy said:
No i don't. I lived in the Miami area then so it must not have amounted to much.
Can you link to some mainstream news coverage ? Surely Evo will allow that transgression of "current-ness" in the spirit of backing claims.
Miami network stations then were WTVJ, WSVN, WPBT, WPLG .

jim hardy said:
did that before asking.

This sure looks like mainstream news coverage to me, lots of top newspapers from both sides of the political spectrum, plus magazines, TV and some on-line sources.
What are your criteria for not calling this mainstream? Not Republican enough?

These are the references you say are not mainstream enough?
  1. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,89450,00.html Time Magazine; November 26, 2000
  2. Maddow, Rachel (August 4, 2009). "Reviewing the history of fake conservative protests". MSNBC TV.
  3. Kamen, Al: Miami 'Riot' Squad: Where Are They Now?, Washington Post, January 24, 2005
  4. Gigot, Paul A.[dead link] Miami Heat: A burgher rebellion in Dade County The Wall Street Journal: Opinion, November 24, 2000
  5. Pullizi , Henry J: White House Brushes Off Health-Care Protests, The Wall Street Journal, August 4, 2009
  6. Filkins, Dexter and Dana Canedy. Protest Influenced Miami-Dade's Decision to Stop RecountThe New York Times, November 24, 2008
  7. Right-Wingers Praise Antics of Bush Thugs Joe Conason; The New York Observer; December 3, 2000
  8. Parry, Robert, Bush's Conspiracy to Riot, Consortiumnews.com, August 5, 2002
  9. Lantigua, John: Miami's rent-a-riot, Salon.com, Politics, November 28, 2000
  10. Staba, David Race Profile: The 20th District in New York, The New York Times, August 22, 2006
  11. Noah, Timothy. Sweeney and the Siege of Miami Slate. November 28, 2000.
  12. CLARY, MIKE (2000-12-02). "Miami Mayor Denies Gore Urged Him to Publicly Support Recount". Los Angeles Times. ISSN 0458-3035. Retrieved 2016-03-15.
  13. Reinhard, Beth:http://stonezone.com/article.php?id=28, Miami Herald, May 17, 2008
    Sarlin, Benjamin (Nov 20, 2008). "A GOP Dirty Trickster Has Second Thoughts". The Daily Beast.
Seems disingenuous.
If you want to watch some old TV show about it, go find it yourself. Statements based on someone's own unawareness of well documented things happening where they lived, puts the responsibility of further citing more on those deniers than anyone else.
 
  • #1,469
BillTre said:
This sure looks like mainstream news coverage to me, lots of top newspapers from both sides of the political spectrum, plus magazines, TV and some on-line sources.
What are your criteria for not calling this mainstream? Not Republican enough?

based on credible observations preferably first hand.
only one reporter cited was within a thousand miles of Miami.
And he wrote:
It was the Dade vote counters, however, who provoked the Republican machine. Seemingly oblivious to GOP anger over the Florida Supreme Court ruling to allow manual recounts, the canvassing board tried an end run around the court's Sunday deadline by deciding to recount only some 11,000 of Dade's 654,000 ballots. Those disputed ballots, most of which did not register presidential votes in the machines, were thought to favor Gore.
http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,89450,00.html
That wikipedia article and most of its sources were written years afterward.
 
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  • #1,470
Alright we need a time out for a review and for everyone to cool off.
 
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