Is the California High School Exit Exam Discriminatory?

[Gokul43201]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/education/20060209-0016-ca-exitexam-lawsuit.html

Seniors, parents file lawsuit over high school exit exam

SACRAMENTO – Like hundreds of thousands of high school seniors throughout California, Nadira Wasi wants to graduate with her class this spring.

To do so, she faces an obstacle that no class before hers has had to overcome – the state's high school exit exam. Wasi, who is part of a program for students who need extra assistance in school, passed the English section but has twice failed the math portion.
...
On Wednesday, a group of high school seniors and their parents who are worried the test might prevent them from graduating filed a lawsuit against the state Department of Education and school Superintendent Jack O'Connell, claiming the exam is illegal and discriminatory.

So ... do you think an exit exam is "illegal [and discriminatory]" ?

 

[1123581321]

no, its not illegal, and is not discriminatory, everyone takes it. if you are in special ed, then you should have different requirements, but a program for students who need extra assistance does not sound like sped to me.

Edit: so i guess it might discriminate against special ed students, but not her.

 

[JasonRox]

I wish we had it.

It weeds out lots of people.

 

[1123581321]

I wish we had it.

It weeds out lots of people.

but do you really want to pay all the tax money for them when they spend 3 years as a senior?

 

[tribdog]

I would prefer to see an exit exam for each grade. get the kids used to taking a test in order to advance. plus it's easier to teach someone one years worth of material instead of 10 years worth.

 

[d_leet]

We have to take one in order to graduate in Alaska, I passed and didn't think it was hard, but my scores were not to much higher than the minimum in order to pass, which is really weird, but the questions were so stupid like writing an essay on your favorite Alaskan animal, I know that is definitely something I need to know how to do to graduate... I don't like them because they're a waste of time but they do weed out the people who just shouldn't graduate.

 

[Atomos]

If you can't pass a 9th grade level math exam by your senior year you will never succeed in life, regardless of whether or not you get a high school diploma.

 

[cronxeh]

If you can't pass a 9th grade level math exam by your senior year you will never succeed in life, regardless of whether or not you get a high school diploma.

Thats not true. There are a lot of artists and musicians, not to mention business(men/women) who dropped out of HS early on.

 

[kant]

These kinds of exams are a bloody joke.

 

[Pengwuino]

I live in California, Antarctica!

I took that exit exam 1st semester in 10th grade and I passed it quite handedly. People need to f'n realize that IF YOU CAN'T PASS THIS TEST, YOU DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH TO HAVE A DIPLOMA. It is plain and simple! You do not receive a diploma because you went to high school for 4 years, you receive it because you LEARNED for 4 years of high school!

They had an article today in the Fresno Bee that SAID IT ALL. This girl has a 3.64 gpa or so and she did NOT pass the exam test and her response was "I've been here 4 years, i deserve my diploma!". NO! I think the REAL problem with what she says is... 3.6GPA? How can someone be so stupid yet do so well? Because teachers are screwing up, they can't give students the grades they deserve and they can't set standards or else people complain.

I have a friend, he is poor, not very bright, barely had a graduation-level GPA...and he passed the test! If someone cannot pass this test, they did not learn a thing in high school and do not deserve that diploma.

 

[scorpa]

Doesn't everyone have to take tests like that to graduate? Kind of like those SAT things you guys take? We had to take diploma exams and if you failed english and/or social you didn't graduate. If you failed any of the others you either didn't have enough credits to graduate or didn't receive the credit for the course but still graduated assuming you passed the others. I don't see what the big deal is. If she knew the stuff she will pass, if she doesn't then maybe she should study a little harder.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Well here in my country there are final tests for each grade, and if you don't pass it, you either get expelled or repeat the grade (for 9-12, you get expelled).

 

[matthyaouw]

Aren't exit exams standard? Are people who fail forced to repeat?

 

[Gokul43201]

Are people who fail forced to repeat?

Yes, unless you want to drop out. You don't get a diploma unless you pass...so that the diploma actually means something.

I have one suggestion to make the people suing a little happier. The school can hand out Attendance Certificates. Yeah, they're not Diplomas, but they say you've spent 4 years here, and you can frame them and hang them on the wall ! That way, there's at least some honesty to the piece of paper.

 

[Entropy]

but do you really want to pay all the tax money for them when they spend 3 years as a senior?

Maybe we should make a law where if you don't pass high school within four years, you have to start paying for it yourself.

 

[inha]

Maybe we should make a law where if you don't pass high school within four years, you have to start paying for it yourself.

In ze my country you get tossed out of HS after 4 years. But you can finish it in an "adult-HS" which is mostly intended for people already past the normal high school age but wish to go back to school for some reason. There's a small fee for the education but it's around $100 a year.

 

[matthyaouw]

In Britain, you get graded A*-G in all of your subjects individually, with C or over considered a pass. If you want to repeat, you have to arrange it yourself, normally at a college rather than your school.

 

[Pengwuino]

but do you really want to pay all the tax money for them when they spend 3 years as a senior?

I would DEFINITELY pay for these people to continue their high school education. If they really do spend 3 years longer, that means they do want to get their diploma and they do want that high school education and more power to them. One less high school dropout is fine by me.

 

[franznietzsche]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/education/20060209-0016-ca-exitexam-lawsuit.html



So ... do you think an exit exam is "illegal [and discriminatory]" ?

My graduating class was supposed to be the first class to have to pass it. Something like 70% of students failed, so they postponed the requirement. Mind you, they calibrated the curve for the test with sophomores. The test was an absolute joke. If you can't pass it, I'm sorry, you don't deserve a high school diploma. At some point, you have to be accountable for meeting a certain level of performance if you want to be awarded a diploma saying you have met that level. Welcome to reality.

 

[Math Is Hard]

IF YOU CAN'T PASS THIS TEST, YOU DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH TO HAVE A DIPLOMA. It is plain and simple! You do not receive a diploma because you went to high school for 4 years, you receive it because you LEARNED for 4 years of high school!

At some point, you have to be accountable for meeting a certain level of performance if you want to be awarded a diploma saying you have met that level. Welcome to reality.

I agree. And I think this lawsuit sends a horrible message. What expectations will these kids have when they leave school? Do they think they will be entitled to a paycheck just because they show up at the job site every day and stay for eight hours?

I just can't understand how these kids have high GPAs, but can't pass the exit exam. All I can figure is that some of these kids are making good grades in their English classes, but they are ESL classes, so they might not have the same reading comprehension and the composition skills that students learn in traditional (non-ESL English) classes.

 

[Pengwuino]

My university has been running into problems with these high school graduates. Tier one of the problem is that these people are taking remedial math classes that teach things they were suppose to know to pass the universities entrance exam! Beyond that, the things on the entrance exam are things you should have done by your 2nd year of high school!

There should be 4 barriers here! 1) Passing the class! How can you pass if you don't know? 2) Passing the grade! Same deal here! How can you advanec when you haven't met expectations? 3) How do you graduate without knowing what a graduate should know? 4) Entrance examinations for universities. I don't know how these people are getting in.

I can no longer defend the California educational system when people from other countries or states say they are better prepared then high school students here. How did this happen? Instead of advancing education, we are dumbing it down. This is as if societies decided to start taking down street lights and tearing down airports and went back to dial-up internet for the masses.

 

[Smasherman]

I'm not positive which test this is. Last (sophomore) year, I had to take a series of standardized tests. I believe one had to do with No Child Left Behind, which I straight-up aced (100% in both categories). I believe the other tests were the STAR tests, which I've been taking since before High School.

I don't believe that a HS diploma should be awarded to people who don't meet up to the standards. A diploma exists as a testament to ability. It's not really fair to society that success in public education be undervalued so much (private education is another matter).

However, if someone can't receive a High School diploma via the normal means, they should have access to an alternative program. Afterall, most people are literally capable of passing (without cheating), so there must be something wrong with the mainstream system (even if the flaw is inherent imperfection due to inability to educate everyone with excellence).

 

[Gokul43201]

Does anyone have a link to or a copy of one such exit exam paper ? I'd really like to see what all these illegally discriminated against folks from California are suing against.

 

[Pengwuino]

I'm not positive which test this is. Last (sophomore) year, I had to take a series of standardized tests. I believe one had to do with No Child Left Behind, which I straight-up aced (100% in both categories). I believe the other tests were the STAR tests, which I've been taking since before High School.

That is not the test. The exit exams began about 5 years ago and i think every other year they were hit with lawsuits that made them not do it 1 year but try the next. They also did not give % marks, you either passed it or failed it.

I don't believe that a HS diploma should be awarded to people who don't meet up to the standards. A diploma exists as a testament to ability. It's not really fair to society that success in public education be undervalued so much (private education is another matter).

to add to this, i had a great analogy. Let's think about real estate. Giving high school diplomas to anyone who wants one is comparable to this: If a real estate agent fails to close a deal simply because they were lazy and didn't get the right forms and never did anything by their deadlines and then demanded a comission anyhow! The real world doesn't give A's for efforts.

However, if someone can't receive a High School diploma via the normal means, they should have access to an alternative program. Afterall, most people are literally capable of passing (without cheating), so there must be something wrong with the mainstream system (even if the flaw is inherent imperfection due to inability to educate everyone with excellence).

The problem is that most people who do not graduate are NOT capable of passing simply because they do not care to learn. The system also aggrevates this by passing people who pretty much learned nothing in a class. I mean can anyone seriously say with a straight face that most people want to learn things?

 

[Pengwuino]

Does anyone have a link to or a copy of one such exit exam paper ? I'd really like to see what all these illegally discriminated against folks from California are suing against.

Yah i'd like to see one of these exams. I don't remember feeling my latino roots being spit on by the government when i took the test. Plus, WHAT IS ILLEGAL ABOUT IT?

What could be illegal about it? How could a test be illegal when its testing your knowledge from hundreds of tests before that?

 

[Smasherman]

That is not the test. The exit exams began about 5 years ago and i think every other year they were hit with lawsuits that made them not do it 1 year but try the next. They also did not give % marks, you either passed it or failed it.

Oh. Nevermind, then.

The problem is that most people who do not graduate are NOT capable of passing simply because they do not care to learn. The system also aggrevates this by passing people who pretty much learned nothing in a class. I mean can anyone seriously say with a straight face that most people want to learn things?

I was referring to people incapable of passing not due to laziness, but rather a learning disability (or something like that). People who can't pass because they don't know enough need to... learn more.

If people don't like the effects of a test, they should abolish it. Why restrict teachers and waste time & money on test-taking if the tests don't matter?

 

[Pengwuino]

Don't take my word for it though, all i remember is that our schools results were returned as pass/fail.

People with learning disabilities are normally accounted for in high schools. One thing does come to mind though. How do we treat people who simply are not smart enough for a degree because of their disabilities? Do we make special standards? That means they are having a diploma with less then the required education. I sympathize with that problem and i really do see a moral issue here. I can't really say whether i want the degree to mean the same to everyone or if people with learning disibilities should be able to pass a dumbed-down test.

What do you mean by abolishing tests if people don't like the effects?

 

[Smasherman]

What do you mean by abolishing tests if people don't like the effects?

If the purpose of a test is to determine ability, and anyone can pass the test, then ability is not determined, thus making the test pointless and nothing more than a waste of time and resources.

edit: If it's pass/fail. Percentage determined quantity of knowledge compared to others, while pass/fail sets everyone in one of two categories.

 

[Pengwuino]

Yes, ability can be determined. Unfortunately, your simply testing for a very low standard of ability. If we tested all 12th graders on basic addition and they all passed, we did actually test an ability successfully. The implication, of course, is that the standards do need to be raised, not that the test didn't determine anything.

 

[franznietzsche]

I can no longer defend the California educational system when people from other countries or states say they are better prepared then high school students here. How did this happen? Instead of advancing education, we are dumbing it down. This is as if societies decided to start taking down street lights and tearing down airports and went back to dial-up internet for the masses.

The hilarious thing about California public education: We have some of the worst public pre-university schools in the developed world. And we have most of the top public universities in the entire world. It doesn't make any sense! Especially when most of the students in those Universities are from California.

 

[concernedmom]

May I just say that some of you have very cruel beliefs on the way a child should be rewarded for their efforts in high school? I have an amazing daughter with a memory processing disability. She goes to school EVERYDAY, meets with tutors and tries so hard to succeed. And now she won't get a diploma because she can’t pass the math part not because she hasn't worked her *** off for the last four years trying everything! Her school offers a certificate of completion which is basically equivalent to a GED. I must say she could have partied her way thru school doing NOTHING and still gotten a GED.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I think its a like a bad idere because like what if you try like real hard and all but the teach doesn't like learn you good and its not like you did anything rong or stuff and then you don't get you're diploma.

 

[Evo]

May I just say that some of you have very cruel beliefs on the way a child should be rewarded for their efforts in high school? I have an amazing daughter with a memory processing disability. She goes to school EVERYDAY, meets with tutors and tries so hard to succeed. And now she won't get a diploma because she can’t pass the math part not because she hasn't worked her *** off for the last four years trying everything! Her school offers a certificate of completion which is basically equivalent to a GED. I must say she could have partied her way thru school doing NOTHING and still gotten a GED.

Are you saying that mentally disabled children aren't held to different requirements for graduation? I find that hard to believe, or is your daughter not in special ed classes? If she has a diagnosed disabilty, I believe that she would get special consideration. You can get two extra hours to complete the SAT with just a doctor's note.

 

[Sorry!]

Woah you guys don't have to take exams after courses? I'm wondering though how do you take a 'year' end exam. In ontario the only mandatory course for all 4 years is english.. 3 for math 2 for science 1 for gym then there are 4 other mandatory courses but u have options of 3 different courses for each credit and then the rest are open courses. this is to obtain your Ontario Secondary School Diploma

at the end of each course you take an exam... normally its worth 30% of your mark, yuo have also a culminating 'task' (like an essay over the entire course) that's worth in some courses 30% of your mark term work is worth the other 40%. the term work is chopped up mainly over unit tests and some assignments. this is just at the high school i attended though. People who had top marks in the class definitely deserved them.

Some schools however were different and the teachers give out marks, when these kids get to university they waste money, time, and energy. In fact in some schools students in grade 12 don't even know how to PROPERLY write a PARAGRAPH let alone an essay.

And I'm not going to lie I feel really pissed off when my girlfriend shows me the work she does to get 80% in a course and compare it to what I have to do to get even 70%... so i think state wide exams are a great idea.

In Ontario as well though if you have a learning disability say in, English (you get tested i think in grade 3) then you get what's called an I.E.P. Independant education plan. where you nd your family sit down with people and develop your own person education plan which includes extra time on test and exemption from certain courses, you still achieve your O.S.S.D. though.

 

[Sorry!]

Are you saying that mentally disabled children aren't held to different requirements for graduation? I find that hard to believe, or is your daughter not in special ed classes? If she has a diagnosed disabilty, I believe that she would get special consideration. You can get two extra hours to complete the SAT with just a doctor's note.

Here if you are in special ed (my brother is 17 but has the mentality of about a grade 3 student for most subjects) you get put into special ed and you work towards a certificate instead of a diploma. I'm pretty sure you can apply to College with it but not university. Most special ed students go to 'trade' schools where instead they teach you life skills and how to do a specific job of your choice. I.E. my brother I believe is currently taking cooking courses as well as mechanical courses. This way it improves the odds of them acquiring a job.

 

[Evo]

Here if you are in special ed (my brother is 17 but has the mentality of about a grade 3 student for most subjects) you get put into special ed and you work towards a certificate instead of a diploma. I'm pretty sure you can apply to College with it but not university. Most special ed students go to 'trade' schools where instead they teach you life skills and how to do a specific job of your choice. I.E. my brother I believe is currently taking cooking courses as well as mechanical courses. This way it improves the odds of them acquiring a job.

Yes, this is my understanding, a special needs student follows a different track. Nice that they are giving him training in more than one thing.

 

[rootX]

May I just say that some of you have very cruel beliefs on the way a child should be rewarded for their efforts in high school? I have an amazing daughter with a memory processing disability. She goes to school EVERYDAY, meets with tutors and tries so hard to succeed. And now she won't get a diploma because she can’t pass the math part not because she hasn't worked her *** off for the last four years trying everything! Her school offers a certificate of completion which is basically equivalent to a GED. I must say she could have partied her way thru school doing NOTHING and still gotten a GED.

There is nothing cruel about it.
1) You need to meet some standards everywhere. Your effort alone doesn't count. (As for normal people, I think people here are rewarded a lot just for putting/showing some effort which makes things bit difficult when it comes to universities)
2) People with special needs shouldn't get free diplomas/jobs but they certainly should be helped as much as possible and at the same time shouldn't be pushed beyond their potential.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

May I just say that some of you have very cruel beliefs on the way a child should be rewarded for their efforts in high school? I have an amazing daughter with a memory processing disability. She goes to school EVERYDAY, meets with tutors and tries so hard to succeed. And now she won't get a diploma because she can’t pass the math part not because she hasn't worked her *** off for the last four years trying everything! Her school offers a certificate of completion which is basically equivalent to a GED. I must say she could have partied her way thru school doing NOTHING and still gotten a GED.

Would you prefer that your daughter gets rewarded with a diploma for trying really hard so she can feel all nice and fuzzy warm inside before she fails her college entrance exam? Or should she be allowed to pass that too because she tried really hard and then realize she can't keep up in class? Or maybe she should even be given a college degree too. But what then? Is she going to be able to get and hold down a college graduate level job? Just how long would you like to defer cold hard reality?

I have met plenty of good and hard working people with decent jobs that never graduated high school or only have GEDs. Would you insult and spit upon them with your insistence that your daughter must be better than that? That you don't want her to be a 'loser' like them?

I'm sure that it may be hard to take for both of you but you can't live life on fuzzy feelings and there are much better measures of worth in life than being able to get a high school diploma.

 

[lisab]

Yuck, what's that smell? Oh...three years dead zombie thread...