Can America compete: A textbook case of failure

[Pengwuino]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12705167/

This is where the United States is falling behind. “Most U.S. high school students don’t take advanced science; they opt out, with only one-quarter enrolling in physics, one-half in chemistry,” the National Science Foundation found. The National Commission on Mathematics and Science Teaching for the 21st Century concluded that U.S. students were “devastatingly far” from leading the world in science and math.

President Bush’s No Child Left Behind initiative put almost every imaginable part of the U.S. education system under a microscope, establishing national standards for teacher training, student testing and basic funding. But glaring in its omission from the program is any significant examination of that most basic of classroom tools, the textbook.

Damn textbook industry is run like the mob

 

[moose]

Most people at my school take only about 3 science courses :(

It's sad when people say they hate chem or say physics is hard or say something else about biology or earth/space science. Most of my closer friends have taken over 6 science courses so far, as have I... That's how everyone should do it, but nope... :(

 

[syko sykes]

I've found that the courses i do best in and the ones that I learn the most in are the ones where I never even open a textbook. A good teacher can do far more than a textbook could ever hope to. I think we should stop buying them altogether. I've found that very few students read the textbook anyway, especially the science and math ones, and the ones that do usually just get confused. Then the teacher explains what they've just read and it all makes more sense. Why not just cut out the middle man and give students less homework by teaching them what they need to know in the first place rather than wasting money and time on textbooks that don't help that much in the end anyway?

 

[Pengwuino]

I've found that the courses i do best in and the ones that I learn the most in are the ones where I never even open a textbook. A good teacher can do far more than a textbook could ever hope to. I think we should stop buying them altogether. I've found that very few students read the textbook anyway, especially the science and math ones, and the ones that do usually just get confused. Then the teacher explains what they've just read and it all makes more sense. Why not just cut out the middle man and give students less homework by teaching them what they need to know in the first place rather than wasting money and time on textbooks that don't help that much in the end anyway?

Textbooks have the holy grail it seems: problems! Especially when you get into the higher levels of math, it becomes a pain to make up problems that come out nice. Plus at the high school levels, you really don't have teachers that are even capable of creating their own problems. Hell some teachers are barely qualified to teach the class from a textbook, let alone off the top of their head.

 

[syko sykes]

Textbooks have the holy grail it seems: problems! Especially when you get into the higher levels of math, it becomes a pain to make up problems that come out nice. Plus at the high school levels, you really don't have teachers that are even capable of creating their own problems. Hell some teachers are barely qualified to teach the class from a textbook, let alone off the top of their head.

That is exactly why i think our nations focus needs to lean more towards getting better teachers.

As far as problems, for lower lvls it's easy and for higher lvls such as AP you can always get the problems from somewhere else. For example, most of the problems we did in my AP Calculus class came off of old AP tests. If teachers are truly having that hard of a time coming up with problems, maybe the people that write the textbooks should all become teachers.

 

[franznietzsche]

That is exactly why i think our nations focus needs to lean more towards getting better teachers.

As far as problems, for lower lvls it's easy and for higher lvls such as AP you can always get the problems from somewhere else. For example, most of the problems we did in my AP Calculus class came off of old AP tests. If teachers are truly having that hard of a time coming up with problems, maybe the people that write the textbooks should all become teachers.

The people writing the books are teachers.

Some of the people who write textbooks are horrible teachers. I've had two professors who authored the book I used in their classes. One was an awesome professor, and the book was my favorite textbook I've ever used. The other one, was not a particularly good teacher (he's not the most awful either though), and his book is awful.

 

[theCandyman]

I think half of all high school students taking chemistry and one fourth taking physics is decent. At best that is about three fourths taking a science class. I see nothing wrong with just taking one of them, I know that if I had a choice in high school, I would not have taken biology. Concerning bad textbooks, teachers can always suggest students seek out other sources.

 

[franznietzsche]

I think half of all high school students taking chemistry and one fourth taking physics is decent. At best that is about three fourths taking a science class. I see nothing wrong with just taking one of them, I know that if I had a choice in high school, I would not have taken biology. Concerning bad textbooks, teachers can always suggest students seek out other sources.

Thats fine, so long as you see nothing wrong with the average education in this country being inferior to what students in other developed countries recieve. Meaning your children are less well prepared to compete in a global job market.

 

[z-component]

At my high school there is a mandate by the school district that students must take Biology I in 9th grade, Chemistry I in 10th, and Physics I in 11th. Therefore, students can take a level-II science course (also an AP course) in 12th grade but a lot of students take the APs sooner or concurrently. It's possible to take AP Chemistry, AP Physics, and AP Biology all at the same time, of course. But there's no one in my school opting out of at least three years of good science. And by good I mean sufficient. The AP courses are where the quality's at.

 

[Astronuc]

I think half of all high school students taking chemistry and one fourth taking physics is decent. At best that is about three fourths taking a science class. I see nothing wrong with just taking one of them, I know that if I had a choice in high school, I would not have taken biology. Concerning bad textbooks, teachers can always suggest students seek out other sources.

I think that statistics may include students taking both chemistry and physics, which may be the majority who take physics, so the fractions are not necessarily additive.

I took two years of chemistry (junior and AP senior yr), one of physics, and continuous mathematics in high school. I would have gladly taken modern physics/ intro QM if they had offered it in high school.

I did have one history teacher in high school who was brilliant. The first day of class, he distributed the textbooks, then promptly told us he would not need them, so we should just park the books in our lockers, which we did. Instead he lectured to use in a way that we could not help but learn. He knew his material, and we did outside reading. He was one of the best teachers I've ever had.

BTW - President Bush’s No Child Left Behind is an unmitigated disaster. Students are being taught to pass standardized tests instead of learning.

 

[loseyourname]

I only took two science classes in high school - biology and physics. I opted out of chemistry since it wasn't a graduation requirement and I was taking a ton of extra classes every year any way (religion classes, drafting, four years of art, ceramics, and sports every year).

I don't feel particularly undereducated nor do I feel like I cannot compete in a global job market. I know this is a science-oriented web site, but science is not the be-all end-all of human existence.

 

[Pengwuino]

Yah, i personally don't see how someone can rationally be disappointed that 6 science classes aren't required in high school. I mean think of what art nuts must think. I know i only had to take like 1 or 2 year of art/artish classes. Then again art isn't really a requirement to getting anything in life.

 

[franznietzsche]

Yah, i personally don't see how someone can rationally be disappointed that 6 science classes aren't required in high school. I mean think of what art nuts must think. I know i only had to take like 1 or 2 year of art/artish classes. Then again art isn't really a requirement to getting anything in life.

Its not so much the number of classes. Its the quality of them. In all fields.

 

[Pengwuino]

Its not so much the number of classes. Its the quality of them. In all fields.

It's all based on the teacher; that's what you need to control. It really is unfortunate that the teachers are the ones who, for the most part, can't cut it in a real major or at a real university and become liberal arts majors and get teaching credentials.

 

[Cyrus]

It's all based on the teacher; that's what you need to control. It really is unfortunate that the teachers are the ones who, for the most part, can't cut it in a real major or at a real university and become liberal arts majors and get teaching credentials.

Lovely generalization pengwuino.

Yah, i personally don't see how someone can rationally be disappointed that 6 science classes aren't required in high school. I mean think of what art nuts must think. I know i only had to take like 1 or 2 year of art/artish classes. Then again art isn't really a requirement to getting anything in life.

There not? Says who, you?

 

[Pengwuino]

Lovely generalization pengwuino.

sure is, what do you want, a list of the educational background of 2 million separate individuals?

 

[Cyrus]

Yes, do a study, then make a claim; otherwise, don't protest to make claims about teachers as a generalization that you have no clue about.

 

[Pengwuino]

Yes, do a study, then make a claim; otherwise, don't protest to make claims about teachers as a generalization that you have no clue about.

I didn't know you wanted to be a teacher

 

[Cyrus]

Yeah, I'm going to school your ***. Ba-ha-ha-haaa

 

[Pengwuino]

Yeah, I'm going to school your ***. Ba-ha-ha-haaa

Your funny cyrus, i don't know why i tried to have you assassinated. give me a hug! :!) :!)

 

[Cyrus]

Will a kick to your groin suffice?

 

[franznietzsche]

It's all based on the teacher; that's what you need to control. It really is unfortunate that the teachers are the ones who, for the most part, can't cut it in a real major or at a real university and become liberal arts majors and get teaching credentials.

I agree that the general quality of teachers is a problem, but so are the curricula.

 

[franznietzsche]

Will a kick to your groin suffice?

Is this really necessary?

 

[Cyrus]

Yes, I love to hate pengwuino

I don't trust hugs from him...<evil eye>

I'm watching you pengwuino.....keep your hands to yourself pal

 

[Gokul43201]

I agree that the general quality of teachers is a problem, but so are the curricula.

I second that. I think that the problem lies more with the quality of (i) the curricula, (ii) the testing/evaluation standards, and (iii) the teachers, than with the textbooks.

The textbooks I had when I was in school (in India) were black and white monsters with the rare diagram as a reward for putting up with 20 straight pages of equations.

There was this one math textbook - 1500 pages thick - where the standard content was as follows :

5 pages of definitions; 15 pages of problems; 50 pages of solutions; rinse & repeat !

 

[Kalimaa23]

Just to make a comparison :

In a typical Belgian high school (6 years, ages 12-18) it looks like this

First year : Everybody gets 4h/week mathematics, 2h/week biology, 2h/week geography

Second year : Same deal. People can opt to take an additional hour of mathematics, and 2h/week of physics is included.

Third year & Fourth: First year split between scientific/non scientific programs. Scientific programs typically included 5h of math, 2h of physics, 2h of chemistry, 2h of biology and 2h of geography. Non scientific get only 4h of math. The get the same amount of science, but the level is lower

Fifth & Sixth year : Here it gets more complicated

Science/Mathematics : 8h of math/3h of physics, chemistry & bio, 2h of geography. Option to reduce bio & geography for Latin or Greek

Science/Mathematics "light" : 6h of math/3h of physics, chemistry & bio, 2h of geography. Option to reduce bio & geography for Latin or Greek

Laguage/Economics/Latin-Greek : 4h of math. 3h/week of "general science" courses, covering a bit of all.

To give you an idea what kind of mathematics is covered

First->Third year : Algebra/Trig/Geometry
Fourth Year : More trig/abstract algebra/precalculus
Fifth year : Calculus/Linear Algebra
Sixth year : Analysis (with some basic topological elements)/Linear Algebra/Projective Geometry & some affine geometry

 

[stepperry]

Just to make a comparison :

In a typical Belgian high school (6 years, ages 12-18) it looks like this

First year : Everybody gets 4h/week mathematics, 2h/week biology, 2h/week geography

Second year : Same deal. People can opt to take an additional hour of mathematics, and 2h/week of physics is included.

Third year & Fourth: First year split between scientific/non scientific programs. Scientific programs typically included 5h of math, 2h of physics, 2h of chemistry, 2h of biology and 2h of geography. Non scientific get only 4h of math. The get the same amount of science, but the level is lower

Fifth & Sixth year : Here it gets more complicated

Science/Mathematics : 8h of math/3h of physics, chemistry & bio, 2h of geography. Option to reduce bio & geography for Latin or Greek

Science/Mathematics "light" : 6h of math/3h of physics, chemistry & bio, 2h of geography. Option to reduce bio & geography for Latin or Greek

Laguage/Economics/Latin-Greek : 4h of math. 3h/week of "general science" courses, covering a bit of all.

To give you an idea what kind of mathematics is covered

First->Third year : Algebra/Trig/Geometry
Fourth Year : More trig/abstract algebra/precalculus
Fifth year : Calculus/Linear Algebra
Sixth year : Analysis (with some basic topological elements)/Linear Algebra/Projective Geometry & some affine geometry

I would have been a sad math student i was here in the USA. That would be a good way of setting the curricula up. What are the other subjects that besides: Geography, Language, Economics, and Latin-Greek?

 

[Chi Meson]

It's all based on the teacher; that's what you need to control. It really is unfortunate that the teachers are the ones who, for the most part, can't cut it in a real major or at a real university and become liberal arts majors and get teaching credentials.

[10 char min]

HEY!

 

[Kalimaa23]

I would have been a sad math student i was here in the USA. That would be a good way of setting the curricula up. What are the other subjects that besides: Geography, Language, Economics, and Latin-Greek?

Euhm... let me think...

Math
Physics
Informatics
Biology
Chemistry
History
Geography
Dutch
French
English
German (optional)
Latin (optional)
Greek (optional)
Economics (optional)
Art
Technological Education
Physical Education
Moral or Religious course of your choice (humanist/catholic/protestant/jewish)

That's about all I can remember for now.

 

[JasonRox]

Did Bush graduate from high school?

 

[Cyrus]

Did Bush graduate from high school?

Good one.

 

[stepperry]

Euhm... let me think...

Math
Physics
Informatics
Biology
Chemistry
History
Geography
Dutch
French
English
German (optional)
Latin (optional)
Greek (optional)
Economics (optional)
Art
Technological Education
Physical Education
Moral or Religious course of your choice (humanist/catholic/protestant/jewish)

That's about all I can remember for now.

Thank you. I was wondering what courses did you take?

 

[stepperry]

Is the history World or Belgian or both?

 

[Kalimaa23]

Is the history World or Belgian or both?

You're kidding right?

Mesopotamia, Greek, Roman, Medieval Europe, Rennaissance, Colonisation of the New World and it's subsequent history, European History in the modern age (post 1789), Colonisation of Africa, Modern Belgian History (1830 and onwards), both World Wars (including interbellum) in GREAT detail, Cold War and it's aftermath...

The problem is that Belgian history is tightly bound to European history (borders used to change quickly here you know...) and European history is interpreted as being the heritage of Classical culture which is considered coming from Mesopotamian cultures...so whe cover them all!

 

[Kalimaa23]

Thank you. I was wondering what courses did you take?

All but Economics, German and Greek. I choose catholic for the religious one. .I'm technically one, like most people in this country. I was a fun course. Turns out most people taking it were atheïsts like me.

 

[stepperry]

Thanks again Dimirti Terryn for your help. How many pages do the Maths/Physics,Biology and Chemistry books have?

 

[stepperry]

Dimirti Terryn would be able to email me some informantion on the textbookss that you used Math,Physics,Informatics,Biology, and Chemistry, History, Geography during Seconary School/ High school? I would like to a secondary/ University here in the The USA that is baed on a mixture of the American/British/German/Belgian and Scandnavian education systems I would would the best of all of them and combined it.Hoe is the school day set up in Belgium? Thank very much in advance for your help.

 

[Kalimaa23]

We do not use textbooks like in the US. Mostly teachers/Professors compile their own course texts. So I'm afraid I won't able to help you there.

 

[stepperry]

We do not use textbooks like in the US. Mostly teachers/Professors compile their own course texts. So I'm afraid I won't able to help you there.

Thank you. How many days a week did you have 7th to 12 thgrade:
Math:
Boilogy:
Physics:
Chemistry:
Dutch :
French :
English:
History:
Geography:
Informatics:
Economics:
Moral or Religious course:

 

[Kalimaa23]

Man...good question. Here's what I remember from my last year. I'll look up the rest and mail it to you, ok?

Hours/ a week

Math: 8h
Boilogy: 3h
Physics: 3h
Chemistry: 3h
Dutch : 5h
French : 3h
English: 3h
History: 2h
Geography: 2h
Informatics: 2h
Economics: 0h
Moral or Religious course: 2h

 

[marlon]

All but Economics, German and Greek. I choose catholic for the religious one. .I'm technically one, like most people in this country. I was a fun course. Turns out most people taking it were atheïsts like me.

No German, shame on you. I took the catholic religion course as well because, err, i had to. I was in a catholic high school (which in Belgium is called "a college".). I had to study like the Latin Mass and stuff "Introibo ad altare Dei..."

marlon

 

[gravenewworld]

it's always doom and gloom about the US education system, but c'mon you can't deny that the US has some of the best scientists in the world. every year it seems that at least 1 american wins a nobel prize.

 

[stepperry]

Man...good question. Here's what I remember from my last year. I'll look up the rest and mail it to you, ok?

Hours/ a week

Math: 8h
Boilogy: 3h
Physics: 3h
Chemistry: 3h
Dutch : 5h
French : 3h
English: 3h
History: 2h
Geography: 2h
Informatics: 2h
Economics: 0h
Moral or Religious course: 2h

thank you, Dimitri Terryn

 

[stepperry]

it's always doom and gloom about the US education system, but c'mon you can't deny that the US has some of the best scientists in the world. every year it seems that at least 1 american wins a nobel prize.

What I am saying is not met to be Doom & Gloom.

 

[Kalimaa23]

No German, shame on you. I took the catholic religion course as well because, err, i had to. I was in a catholic high school (which in Belgium is called "a college".). I had to study like the Latin Mass and stuff "Introibo ad altare Dei..."

marlon

I took it at a state school (atheneum). We mainly talked about sex.

 

[GCT]

“devastatingly far” from leading the world in science and math.

...certainly an interesting choice of words here, "devastating."

 

[Kalimaa23]

it's always doom and gloom about the US education system, but c'mon you can't deny that the US has some of the best scientists in the world. every year it seems that at least 1 american wins a nobel prize.

True, but the impression I get from the US education system is that is substandard compared to the rest of the Western world during secondary education and at the undergraduate level. At the graduate level however, this level raises dramatically.

Just looking at Nobel winners is not a good benchmark for the general quality of education.

 

[ShawnD]

True, but the impression I get from the US education system is that is substandard compared to the rest of the Western world during secondary education and at the undergraduate level. At the graduate level however, this level raises dramatically.

Not to be a jerk... but I think Oprah had a show about this. She had some girl on the show who was an amazing honors student in high school, but she turned into a college slacker because she wasn't at the same level as what the college assumed people knew. Some of the stuff she didn't know enough of was calculus, physics (based on calculus), how to use a microscope (it's not as easy as it looks), some higher up biology stuff, and some of the math oriented chemistry stuff.
I know in my classes a few of these held true. I took a year of engineering and found out half the people there had never taken calculus before. In chemistry, some of the people had never seen or heard of the nernst equation. Some people didn't know LeChatelier's Principle, how to calculate equilibrium constants, or KSP values.

It's a real statistic that the majority of college students will quit after the first year. Part of it is finding out college isn't some nonstop party, but the other part is finding you aren't at the same level as everybody else and end up being 'that guy' nobody wants to work with.

With regard to this problem of underqualified teachers:
People seem to forget is that the teachers actually learn the material to the point where they can teach it to others. For example, my grade 10 social studies teacher was technically a gym teacher and the soccer coach. Despite that, he knew more about history than anybody else simply because he had been teaching that class for over 10 years.
It's not like underqualified teachers are idiots forever; they're only idiots until they learn the material they are teaching and are able to present that material in an understandable way. Some of the worst teachers I've ever had were bad not because they lacked knowledge but because they could not put across ideas in an understandable way. If forced to choose between a well spoken idiot and a poorly spoken genius, I would take the idiot any day of the week.

 

[bomba923]

As far as American education "undergraduate & below" is concerned,
a major problem exists in that much of the talk about "academic standards" seems to ignore the equally crucial detail of HOW TO ENFORCE those standards. With grade inflation* (needless to say, working alongside low standards) rather ubiquitous (in opportunity and application) in public schools, I say it's time we look beyond teachers...towards something a little more...'impartial' (for lack of a better word)...for the enforcement of academic standards.
(If you wish, my concrete reform solution is discussed in this thread)

*I employ the term "grade inflation" to broadly describe ANY situation when an individual student receives a grade that does not represent/corresponds to his/her competence in/understanding of the course material. It can occur unbeknownst to the teacher. As some may think, I define "grade inflation" broadly.[/size]

 

[Moonbear]

Just looking at Nobel winners is not a good benchmark for the general quality of education.

True. If anything, it speaks to the quality of education probably over 40 years ago when those Nobel winners were in school, but says nothing about where the current generation will fare.