Can Reading Holy Books Enhance Understanding of Human History?

[Greg Bernhardt]

I don't adhere to any religion nor have I been conviced there is a God. However I have recently decided that in order to better understand human history and current world affairs it would be very benefical to read the major holy books. My GF is currently reading the Bible and I am about 100 pages into the Qur'an. I also picked up the Upanishads and would like to get a Torah. Now, finishing all these will likely take me a couple years (with the Qur'an I can only handle reading maybe 15 pages at a time!). Does anyone else read holy books for "fun"?

 

[turbo]

My faves in college were translations of the writings of Eastern philosophy/religion, especially Zen Buddhism. And yes, I did read them for insight/entertainment, though I had a double major in Philosophy and English Lit, and they did have some bearing on my course-work. Most interesting to me was the progression from the Indian "wheel of life" to the Buddhist concept of progressive enlightenment to the Zen concept of "awakening" in a real "aha" moment. If you want to come full circle and read about Zen-like concepts being applied to Indian mysticism, I highly recommend "Be Here Now" by Baba Ram Dass (Richard Alpert).

 

[Evo]

Since I was raised Catholic, I had never read or owned a Bible. My youger daughter was given one, so I started reading it. It's frightening and interesting what was considered acceptable back then, I'm reading it as a form of history.

 

[mgb_phys]

Or like W.C. fields you could read them looking for loopholes

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Since I was raised Catholic, I had never read or owned a Bible. My youger daughter was given one, so I started reading it. It's frightening and interesting what was considered acceptable back then, I'm reading it as a form of history.

Yeah my GF tells me there is a lot of animal sacrifice early in the Bible.

 

[Evo]

Yeah my GF tells me there is a lot of animal sacrifice early in the Bible.

Yes, a lot.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Yes, a lot.

Which surprised me because I thought animal sacrifice was Pagan and frowned on by the Church.

Also back to the Qu'ran. I was very surprised to see many "Biblical" characters in the text. I wonder what the relationship between the two books are and why they share characters.

 

[turbo]

God said to Abraham "Kill me a son" and Abe said "Man, you got to be putting me on." God said "No." Abe said "What?" God said "You can do what you want, Abe, but...next time you see me coming you'd better run." Abe said "Where do you want this killing done?" and God said "Out on Highway 61."

Wait til' you read about God's bet with the devil about Job, and the horrors that God visited on Job to win the bet and prove his point. There is not a lot of love and kumbaya in the old testament.

 

[Evo]

Which surprised me because I thought animal sacrifice was Pagan and frowned on by the Church.

Also back to the Qu'ran. I was very surprised to see many "Biblical" characters in the text. I wonder what the relationship between the two books are and why they share characters.

Mohammed believed he was a prophet of the same God as in the Old testament. I'll let someone more knowledgeable flesh that out.

 

[_Mayday_]

Which surprised me because I thought animal sacrifice was Pagan and frowned on by the Church.

Also back to the Qu'ran. I was very surprised to see many "Biblical" characters in the text. I wonder what the relationship between the two books are and why they share characters.

Are they not both abrahamic religions?Give some of this a read. I know it is wikipedia and religion so there could be some bias but a lot of it is goo dstuff as far as I have read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religion

 

[Evo]

The Bible even goes into what the priests were to wear, relly elaborate stuff, colorful, purple, with pomegranites embroidered on the hems, God was quite the fashion designer.

 

[turbo]

Which surprised me because I thought animal sacrifice was Pagan and frowned on by the Church.

Also back to the Qu'ran. I was very surprised to see many "Biblical" characters in the text. I wonder what the relationship between the two books are and why they share characters.

The old testament predated the Church, and ritual sacrifices were performed by observant Jews well past the time of Jesus. Also, the Bible and Qu'ran came from a common religious tradition - Jesus is just another in a long line of prophets in the latter, though.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Are they not both abrahamic religions?


Give some of this a read. I know it is wikipedia and religion so there could be some bias but a lot of it is goo dstuff as far as I have read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religion

No idea, I have really no background in any relgion or as a historical concept. Unfortunately the Qu'ran doesn't give background information or any history (yet). So when a character is mentioned, it feels very arbitrary.

 

[turbo]

No idea, I have really no background in any relgion or as a historical concept. Unfortunately the Qu'ran doesn't give background information or any history (yet). So when a character is mentioned, it feels very arbitrary.

Reading translations of original texts is a bit dicey at times, because these (the Torah and Qu'ran especially) were passed down orally (rote memorization) for countless generations, and there was a social context that those adherents had that we lack today. For instance, if you read Leviticus, it was a grave offense for Jews to wear clothing woven of more than one type of fiber. In other words, all-cotton was OK, all-wool was OK, but a blend forbidden. Slavery was permitted, though releasing slaves was encouraged in Jubilee years. There were also some interesting social arrangements permissible if one's male relatives died, leaving their spouses widowed. If you can take a course locally that focuses on the historical placement of these texts in the context of nomadic tribes with oral traditions, who eventually settled and transitioned to agriculture, I think you'll get a lot more out of your readings.

 

[Evo]

It would be fun to read the books together on here. I'm willing to buy the Quran, I have a bible and would be interested in reading the Torah as well. We'd all have to have the same versions though.

 

[Math Is Hard]

http://interoz.com/egypt/bkofdead.htm"

I got this for my 12th birthday because I was fascinated with hieroglyphics.

 

[Evo]

Good suggestions Turbo. We do have some people here with quite an historical background. I believe Arildno is one.

 

[Evo]

Funny, I know someone that read the Bhagavad Gita and although he is an atheist, he'd pray for the spiders he'd have to kill for research and he's the world's top authority on spiders. We're talking MANY dead spiders.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

It would be fun to read the books together on here. I'm willing to buy the Quran, I have a bible and would be interested in reading the Torah as well. We'd all have to have the same versions though.

That would be awesome. This is one one I bought. It's a simple paperback and the translation is fairly modern.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0940368188/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Maybe there is a better one, I don't know.

 

[turbo]

It would be fun to read the books together on here. I'm willing to buy the Quran, I have a bible and would be interested in reading the Torah as well. We'd all have to have the same versions though.

Very important! The Jesuits released a translation of the Bible back in the '60s (the New Jerusalem Bible) in which they attempted to translate the earliest-known examples of each section of text. If you have a book that is written in Hebrew, translated to Aramaic, then to Greek, then to Latin, then to German, then to English there are many opportunities for error, unintentional or intentional. In their version of the Bible, Mary is a "maiden" and not a "virgin", and it appears that the word virgin crept into the Bible's Latin translations because of the Romans' long tradition of virginity cults.

 

[Evo]

That would be awesome. This is one one I bought. It's a simple paperback and the translation is fairly modern.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0940368188/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Maybe there is a better one, I don't know.

I did see one suggestion in the reviews for another one. Let's see if there are any other suggestions and then decide.

This could be a lot of fun.

 

[mgb_phys]

Mary is a "maiden" and not a "virgin", and it appears that the word virgin crept into the Bible's Latin translations because of the Romans' long tradition of virginity cults.

The trouble with all translations is you have simply moved the argument up a level.
Does maiden imply virgin in English or simply unmarried?
It certainly used to mean virginal in many folk songs, although that usually got solved by about verse 3.

 

[turbo]

The trouble with all translations is you have simply moved the argument up a level.
Does maiden imply virgin in English or simply unmarried?
It certainly used to mean virginal in many folk songs, although that usually got solved by about verse 3.

Understood. The methodology of the Jesuits in compiling their Jerusalem Bible was to translate from the earliest known examples of each text directly into English, with the goal of producing a more historically accurate document. The Jesuits are perhaps the most scholarly branch of the Roman Catholic Church, and their penchant for questioning dogma has gotten them into hot water with the Vatican more than once.

 

[Astronuc]

Rather than reading just Torah, I would recommend the entire Tanach. The Stone edition of the Tanach is one of the best modern versions, and I have a copy.

Rather than just the Torah (or Chumash), one should perhaps read the entire Tanach, which is Torah, Nevi'im (Prophets) and Ketuvim (Writings - Psalms, proverbs and others)

http://www.artscroll.com/stonetanach.html (offline between Friday-sundown and Saturday-sundown EST)

or https://www.amazon.com/dp/0899062695/?tag=pfamazon01-20

All 24 books of the Torah, Prophets, and Writings are now at your fingertips in one magnificent 2,200 page volume, as interpreted by the classic sages of Talmudic and Rabbinic literature.


Torah/Chumash

Genesis (Beresh!t: "In the beginning...")
Exodus (Shemot: "Names")
Leviticus (Vayyiqra: "And he called...")
Numbers (Bamidbar: "In the desert/wilderness...")
Deuteronomy (Devarim: "Words", "Discourses", or "Things")


Nevi'im (Prophets)

I. Joshua (Yehoshua)
II. Judges (Shoftim)
III. Samuel (Shmu'el)
IV. Kings (Melakhim)

V. Isaiah (Yeshayahu)
VI. Jeremiah (Yirmiyahu)
VII. Ezekiel (Yehezq'el)
VIII. Trei Asar (The Twelve Minor Prophets)


The Ketuvim

Group I: The Three Poetic Books (Sifrei Emet)

1. Tehillim (Psalms)
2. Mishlei (Book of Proverbs)
3. `Iyyov (Book of Job)

Group II: The Five Scrolls (Hamesh Megillot)

4. Shir ha-Shirim (Song of Songs) or (Song of Solomon)
5. Ruth (Book of Ruth) (Shavuot)
6. Eikhah (Lamentations)
7. Kohelet (Ecclesiastes) (Sukkot)
8. Esther (Book of Esther) (Purim)

Group III: Other Historical Books

9. Daniel (Book of Daniel)
10. Ezra (Book of Ezra-Book of Nehemiah)
11. Divrei ha-Yamim (Chronicles)


For further readings, I would suggest the commentaries of Rashi and theRambam (Maimonides)

Judism and Islam are considered to have common Abrahmic roots. Both Jewish and Islamic traditions consider Ishmael as the ancestor of Arab people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael

 

[mgb_phys]

The methodology of the Jesuits in compiling their Jerusalem Bible was to translate from the earliest known examples of each text directly into English, with the goal of producing a more historically accurate document.

It's not that the translation is bad - it's that translations assume a common definition of the word in English.
Unless there is an appendix which states 'we take the term maiden to mean virgin' then it is more ambiguous than the original.
That's why patents and technical standards end up being written in such unreadable language, you have to define every word as you go.

To take a simple example 'bad' means something very different to a teenager and to their parent.

 

[TVP45]

Which surprised me because I thought animal sacrifice was Pagan and frowned on by the Church.

Also back to the Qu'ran. I was very surprised to see many "Biblical" characters in the text. I wonder what the relationship between the two books are and why they share characters.

They share much of the Hebrew Bible because of Abraham's two sons Isaac (born of Sarah) and Ishmael (born of Hagar). Jews are descended from Isaac and Muslims are descended from Ishmael. Both religions worship the same G-d and have a tradition of interpretation and commentary. That is, in addition to the written books (which varies a little bit depending on which religion you are), they have written commentary and oral tradition/interpretation (Midrash for Jews). These commentaries and interpretations flesh out the sometimes terse stories found in the Hebrew Bible. The Qu'ran is not intended to be in any sense chronological and that sometimes seems confusing since the Hebrew Bible and Christian New Testament are basically chronological.

Both Jews and Muslims consider themselves bound by Abram's convenant with G-d. Christians generally feel that covenant was superceded by Baptism although there is some theological hair-splitting about this. The three religions are monotheistic, though Jews in particular sometimes have difficulty with the Christian Trinity and all base their legitimacy on their descent from Abraham.
The book Christians call the Old Testament is essentially the Hebrew Bible.

 

[TVP45]

It would be fun to read the books together on here. I'm willing to buy the Quran, I have a bible and would be interested in reading the Torah as well. We'd all have to have the same versions though.

Normally, when you say Torah, this is the five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

 

[mgb_phys]

Normally, when you say Torah, this is the five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

So presumably there isn't much point reading the Torah + the old testament, given that (translations aside) they should be identical.

 

[TVP45]

It's not that the translation is bad - it is that translations assume a common definition of the word in English. It is always difficult to translate somethign that has literay content while keeping it the meaning accurate.
That's why patents and technical standards end up being written in such unreadable language, you have to define every word as you go.

Unless there is an appendix which states 'we take the term maiden to mean virgin' then it is more ambiguous than the original. To take a simple example 'bad' means something very different to a teenager and to their parent.

There are concordances available to help. I use James Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible to find the original Hebrew or Greek which then offers best guesses based on contemporary usage. The "virgin" from Matthew comes from the Greek parthenos, literally maiden or unmarried daughter.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mah%C4%81bh%C4%81rata" .

For understanding Islam the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith" are also very important, the oral traditions of the deeds and words of Mohammed and his followers. When I was a kid reading the Koran there was nowhere to find that stuff but now there are many sources available over the internet (and probably even in some local libraries now too.)

The Papyrus of Ani, the Egyptian Book of the Dead is awesome. I love the idea that your soul must be lighter than a feather to enter heaven. For a Lamaist take on the same thing there's the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo_Thodol" , the Tibetan Book of the Dead. There's a really awesome BBC documentary that used to be up on Google Video about it that got taken down, unfortunately.

What we have of Zoroastrianism's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avesta" s of India and Iran.

And although it isn't a scripture for any living religion I always liked reading the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh" . What we have left is nice and short, it's worth checking out and you could probably read the whole thing while you're visiting one of those bookstores that has nice comfy chairs and couches. It's also supposed to be the oldest written story in the world.

If there are any local colleges with a Theology department near you check out their libraries, they tend to have lots of stuff about all sorts of religions even if it's something like a Catholic school that adheres to one sect of one religion.

So yes, I like reading holy books too.

⚛​

 

[TVP45]

So presumably there isn't much point reading the Torah + the old testament, given that (translations aside) they should be identical.

There are small differences, but those are fairly subtle and I usually have to ask a Rabbi to explain them. Given only one choice, I would read the Hebrew Bible; it's like reading Maxwell versus Resnick's textbook - the original seems preferable.

 

[TVP45]

Rather than reading just Torah, I would recommend the entire Tanach. The Stone edition of the Tanach is one of the best modern versions, and I have a copy.

Thanks. I wasn't aware of this. I'll check it out.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Oh, and I forgot the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analects" of Taoism. Taoism is pronounced "Dowism" by the way, like the Dow Jones Industrial Index.

⚛​

 

[mgb_phys]

The "virgin" from Matthew comes from the Greek parthenos, literally maiden or unmarried daughter.

That was my point you need an annotation that says something like - "the original Hebrew word is X and it is also used in other documents from the same period to mean Y".
So does 'parthenos' mean hadn't had sex or just unmarried, or given the society would there be no difference between the two?
Simply translating into another language, especially one as subtle and changable as English isn't enough - however good the translation.


ps. Does the Qu'ran repeat the Torah/Old Testament books or does it just provide a link to them?

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Yeah my GF tells me there is a lot of animal sacrifice early in the Bible.

Not to mention human sacrifice. See Abraham and Isaac.

It would be fun to read the books together on here. I'm willing to buy the Quran, I have a bible and would be interested in reading the Torah as well. We'd all have to have the same versions though.

One solution might be to read a version that is free online, or pick a version that is also free online. That would also permit linking to specific passages.

⚛​

 

[mgb_phys]

And although it isn't a scripture for any living religion

In the theme of religions that lost there is the "Poetic Edda" admitadley not as much sex and violence as the old testament.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

In the theme of religions that lost there is the "Poetic Edda" admitadley not as much sex and violence as the old testament.

Yes! And the Finnish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevala" . Actually, I haven't read the Kalevala. If we were all going to read something together I'd definitely vote for that. It's more of a narrative than the Koran is.

⚛​

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Not to mention human sacrifice. See Abraham and Isaac.

If Isaac was sacrificed as a young boy, how could Jews be the descendant of him?

 

[Evo]

If Isaac was sacrificed as a young boy, how could Jews be the descendant of him?

Isaac was spared at the last moment because god said "heh, I was just joking".

 

[EnumaElish]

If Isaac was sacrificed as a young boy, how could Jews be the descendant of him?

Isaac was spared at the last moment because god said "heh, I was just joking".

So Jews descended from Isaac and Muslims from Ishmael, Isaac's older brother (according to the Muslim faith).

There may be some interfaith disagreement over whom Abraham intended to sacrifice, Isaac or Ishmael.

Muslim faith recognizes the holy books up to and including Koran, recognizes all prophets up to and including Mohammad ("God sent a prophet to every generation"), does believe in resurrection of Jesus, and AFAIK his promise to return (possibly except for Shiites, who believe that the prophesied messiah is their 12th imam).

According to the Muslim faith, each prophet taught God's word to his generation and they were all true religions, but men forgot or corrupted those teachings over time. Finally God said "enough is enough," and sent Koran as his "final word."

 

[DrClapeyron]

I am finished with the Exodus of the Bible. This is a great book for reference of morals and Mosaic law and its counterpart the Napoleon code (or civil law).

Muslims believe Ishmael was the legit heir to Abraham's tribe because he was eldest but because he was born of a concubine sarogate mother Jews believe Isaac to be true heir because he was born of Abraham's wife. Of course Abraham had many wives and some he favored more than others.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

If Isaac was sacrificed as a young boy, how could Jews be the descendant of him?

It's not that Isaac himself was sacrificed, it's that this story is generally taken to mean that ancient Hebrews practiced human sacrifice, as did many early cultures.

⚛​

 

[mgb_phys]

If Isaac was sacrificed as a young boy, how could Jews be the descendant of him?

God was playing an early game of "Yahweh says" - but didn't say "Yahweh says - sacrifice Isaac"

 

[falc39]

One of the things I find so fascinating about reading this kind of stuff is how it permeates throughout our culture. Even if you don't believe it literally, you are constantly exposed to it. For instance, many famous movies and novels borrow from the religious and mythical stories all around the world. Even in computer games, there are a ton of references and parallels if you take the time to notice it. It's everywhere, and I believe it points to a deeper sense of meaning. It's hard to ignore something so timeless.

 

[TVP45]

That was my point you need an annotation that says something like - "the original Hebrew word is X and it is also used in other documents from the same period to mean Y".
So does 'parthenos' mean hadn't had sex or just unmarried, or given the society would there be no difference between the two?
Simply translating into another language, especially one as subtle and changable as English isn't enough - however good the translation.


ps. Does the Qu'ran repeat the Torah/Old Testament books or does it just provide a link to them?

Sorry. When I wrote that last night I was tired and too terse. Parthenos doesn't really refer to sexual activity but rather to marital status, i,e, Mary was an unmarried woman. The implication, given the mores of the time, is that she was also virginal, but the problem with the story is the logical contradiction. She's Joseph's wife but is unmarried.

But, you make an excellent point about English. Many fundamentalists swear by the literal veracity of the King James Bible, yet it is well-known to have been edited by James who did not like words like "tyrant", "despot", etc. I typically use 4 or 5 different Bibles when I read so that I can see the different interpretations. If you want an exercise in futility, try figuring out what "spirit" means; I eventually just began using the much simpler Buddhist meaning of "breath".

The Qu'ran does not repeat the Torah. It apparently was assumed that most Muslims were familiar with that already. The Qu'ran provides commentary and correction to some practices of religion. I am not very familiar with the book, both because it is hard to follow and because I have frankly been afraid to go to the local Islamic Center to ask questions for fear I'll never again be allowed on an airplane or worse.

 

[TVP45]

If Isaac was sacrificed as a young boy, how could Jews be the descendant of him?

There are a number of possible answers which have been put forth:

The Torah was invented out of whole cloth during the Babylonian Exile as a tool for cohesiveness. Thus, nothing needs to be explained.

The story of Abraham is apocryphal. The Apostle Paul epoused this view.

Isaac was not sacrificed. Abraham's hand was stayed by an angel (or G-d) at the last minute.

It was Ishmael who was sacrificed.

Isaac was sacrificed, went somewhere for 3 days, and was resurrected. When you add to this the fact that Isaac carried the wood up the mountain for his sacrifice, you can see the parallel with the crucifixion of Christ. There is indeed a reference in the New Testament about events seen before they happened (a bad paraphrase but I can't find the verses just now).

 

[TVP45]

It would be fun to read the books together on here. I'm willing to buy the Quran, I have a bible and would be interested in reading the Torah as well. We'd all have to have the same versions though.

I'd be up for that.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

TVP45, I don't get the joke... Isaac was not sacrificed in the story told in the Bible. Are you confusing this with something else?

⚛​

 

[TVP45]

TVP45, I don't get the joke... Isaac was not sacrificed in the story told in the Bible. Are you confusing this with something else?

⚛​

If you ever read many of my posts, you know I love bad puns and groaner jokes. This is serious.

I gave several explanations that are commonly put forth. My personal opinion is that the story is allegorical (I said apocryphal in the previous post and that was the wrong word).

But, if you read the 22nd chapter of Genesis, you will note that, prior to the event, the writer refers to "Abraham and Isaac", "they", and "the two". When it's all over, it says "Abraham went back..." This bothers many scholars and is usually just glossed over. Yet, clearly, Isaac shows up later as a grown man (or at least does if we take Genesis as chronological - it may not be)

Only the Christian churches view the Bible as the sole source. Jews and Muslims use commentaries and traditions and other revelations. Some of those traditions give a more detailed description of what happened to Isaac. Below is a link to a Penn course on the Midrash interpetations (this is just sort of typical - there are a ton of sites like this):
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/002/Midrash.html

 

[iansmith]

does believe in resurrection of Jesus

Actually, Islam denies that Jesus was crucified (Qur'an 4:157) and, therefore, Jesus never died and resurrected. Based on islamic tradition, someone else (i.e. a double) was used instead of Jesus.

The Qur'an also mention that Jesus was able to talk only a few hours/days after birth and that Marry was not married to Joseph.

Other interesting "holy" scripture, as someone mention are Apocryphon (i.e. the gospel that didn't make it in the bible). These writings are quite interesting and some of those gospels influence the Qur'an. For example, as a youth Jesus is a "demon" child and uses is "magical" power to play trick on people.

Other interesting "holy" scripture would be the gnostic writings since they do include Jesus and other Abrahamic religion into their believe