Cancelling out Power Supply Noise out COMPLETELY

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the challenge of cancelling out power supply noise in a circuit involving a high voltage resistor (R2) while measuring its noise characteristics. Participants explore circuit configurations and methodologies to achieve this goal, considering the implications of noise sources and bandwidth on measurements.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant inquires about the possibility of completely cancelling power supply noise if the circuit is slightly unbalanced, questioning the existence of such a circuit.
  • Another participant asserts that no power supply can be completely noise-free, suggesting that if power supply noise is problematic, the measurement methodology should be reconsidered.
  • The resistance value of R2 is stated to be 600 Mohms, with a note that this introduces significant thermal noise that must be accounted for in the measurements.
  • A participant proposes using a high voltage capacitor in place of R1 to reduce noise, but expresses difficulty in balancing the circuit to eliminate power supply noise while still measuring R2's noise.
  • Bandwidth considerations are highlighted, with a participant noting that the bandwidth of interest is crucial for noise measurement, as different supplies may perform differently within specific frequency ranges.
  • Concerns are raised about the thermal noise generated by the high resistance of R2, particularly in relation to the bandwidth of the circuit.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that complete cancellation of power supply noise is not feasible, but there is no consensus on the best approach to mitigate its effects while measuring R2's noise. The discussion remains unresolved regarding specific circuit configurations and methodologies.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention the importance of bandwidth in noise measurements, indicating that different power supplies may introduce varying levels of noise depending on the frequency range of interest. The implications of thermal noise from high resistance components are also noted, suggesting limitations in measurement accuracy.

jonlg_uk
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Hi I have a HV (R2) resistor that I want to test for noise. Assuming the 2 low voltage resistors are perfectly stable and HV R1 is also perfectly stable. How could I completely cancel out the noise of the power supply if the bridge was slightly unbalanced? Does any circuit exist that can do this?

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No, there is no such thing as a PS with no noise. There are some very low noise supplies out there (use a battery) but I'd say that if the noise of the PS is that problematic you need to re-think your measurement methodology.
What is the resistance of R2? Remember that you also have the thermal noise (of R2 and the rest of the circuit) to deal with, and that can be substantial even compared to the input noise of a typical OP-amp.
Also, which bandwidth are you interested in?
 
f95toli said:
No, there is no such thing as a PS with no noise. There are some very low noise supplies out there (use a battery) but I'd say that if the noise of the PS is that problematic you need to re-think your measurement methodology.
What is the resistance of R2? Remember that you also have the thermal noise (of R2 and the rest of the circuit) to deal with, and that can be substantial even compared to the input noise of a typical OP-amp.
Also, which bandwidth are you interested in?


Hi thanks for the reply. I know it is impossible to design and build a PS with no noise. The value of R2 is 600Mohms. I am looking for some type of circuit configuration that will cancel the noise and the HV of the power supply but at the same time allowing me to measure the noise of R2.

I have thought about using a HV cap in place of R1 as they have much less noise. However balancing the circuit so that it cancels out all the power supply noise is proving difficult and I am still reading some of the PS noise.
 
But again. which BW are you interested in? If you are only interested in say the noise between 10kHz and 100kHz you might be OK with a PS that let's a lot of mains+harmonics through, but perhaps not OK with a switching supply that switches at e.g. 20 kHz and so on.
The BW is a crucial parameter when designing noise measurement experiments.

Also, a 600 Mohm resistor will give you a lot of thermal noise unless you restrict the BW of you circuit (a few mV/sqrt(Hz)).
 

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