Constant pressure process (piston) on gas violates Newtons 2nd law?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the application of Newton's laws to a constant pressure process involving a piston and gas. Participants explore the dynamics of the piston as it is heated and raised, questioning how acceleration and net forces are reconciled with the constant pressure condition in thermodynamic problems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how a piston can move from rest under constant pressure without a net force, suggesting that acceleration is necessary for movement.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of work done by the gas, indicating that the gas performs work at constant pressure, which may clarify the situation.
  • A different viewpoint suggests that when the gas is heated, its pressure momentarily increases, creating a force imbalance that allows the piston to move, but this pressure returns to its original state as the piston rises.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of a frictionless system and the inertia of the piston, which may affect the initial conditions of the process.
  • One participant notes that the example is a simplification and that real-world scenarios would involve transient accelerations that are typically neglected in theoretical problems.
  • A question is posed regarding the effects of an abrupt increase in internal pressure on the system.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the role of net forces and acceleration in the context of the piston and gas dynamics. There is no consensus on how to reconcile the constant pressure condition with the need for acceleration, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight assumptions regarding frictionless conditions, the transient nature of the process, and the simplifications made in theoretical models that may not fully capture the complexities of real-world behavior.

questionmonkey123
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
Screen Shot 2021-10-01 at 7.18.34 PM.png


I often see this set up in thermodynamic problems and need clarification on how Newton's Laws are involved for the piston:

Gas inside a piston cylinder (1) is heated expanding the gas and raising the piston (initially at rest) to a height (2) in a constant pressure quasi-equilibrium process. At (2) the piston is also at rest, thus the FBD at (1) and (2) are the same.

My understanding: In order for piston to travel to any height from initial rest, there is acceleration involved thus a net force. The only forces on the piston are the ones shown (for any point in the process), and the gas pressure is constant throughout the process so there is never a net force to move the piston up from rest.
How is this type of problem justified in terms of Newton's laws? What assumptions am I overlooking?
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
When you think of NOT force BUT work or energy, gas inside the cylinder did work of ##p_1 Ah##.
Constant pressure quasi-equilibrium process is not constant pressure equilibrium.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: sophiecentaur
anuttarasammyak said:
When you think of NOT force BUT work or energy, gas inside the cylinder did work of ##p_1 Ah##.
But how does this clarify acceleration with no net force? I already know how to calculate work.
 
When you heat gas its pressure goes up slightly ##\triangle p## which make force imbalance and the piston moves up. By gas inflation its pressure goes down back to ##p_1## and the piston oscillates and ceases oscillating in a long time transferring all kinetic energy to potential energy and stops at ##\triangle h## up for there is no loss of energy or heat generation for a reversible process. Such an infinitesimal process is repeated infinite times for the final piston height.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Lnewqban
At state 1:
$$\left(P_1 - P_0\right)A = mg$$
After heating, the pressure increases by ##\Delta P##:
$$\left(\left(P_1 + \Delta P\right) - P_0\right)A = m(g + a)$$
And the acceleration ##a## depends on ##\Delta P##.

But as soon as the piston moves, the pressure decreases because the volume increases. Eventually, ##\left(P_1 + \Delta P\right)## will go back to ##P_1## and ##a## will go back to zero. The only difference is that the volume and temperature have increased.
 
What happens in cases of abrupt increase of internal pressure?

 
questionmonkey123 said:
The only forces on the piston are the ones shown (for any point in the process), and the gas pressure is constant throughout the process so there is never a net force to move the piston up from rest.
How is this type of problem justified in terms of Newton's laws? What assumptions am I overlooking?
Assuming a frictionless system, the piston still has inertia and resists moving when the gas is first heated. Thus the gas is initially at a higher pressure than it will be later, as jack action explained in post #5.
 
The simple answer here is that the given example is a simplified abstraction of what would actually occur in such a situation. Of course in the real world you would need some initial (and final) acceleration and this whole process is transient, but the purposes of problems like this are perfectly well-served by neglecting those details.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Drakkith

Similar threads

  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 45 ·
2
Replies
45
Views
6K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
870
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
6K
  • · Replies 60 ·
3
Replies
60
Views
10K