Derivation of Lorentz invariant

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the Lorentz invariant, specifically the equation x'^2 + y'^2 + z'^2 - c^2t'^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 - c^2t^2. Participants explore various justifications and reasoning behind this formula, touching on concepts of linearity, infinitesimals, and transformations in the context of special relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant recalls a justification for the Lorentz invariant involving light and suggests that the reasoning hinges on linearity, but cannot remember the details of the argument.
  • Another participant proposes a form for the relationship between differentials, ds' and ds, suggesting that it can be expressed as (ds')^2=f(p)ds^2+C, where f(p) is a function dependent on space, velocity, and time.
  • This second participant argues that f(p) must be independent of space and time due to the homogeneity and isotropy of space, leading to the conclusion that f(p) can only depend on the absolute value of relative velocity.
  • A third participant questions the implication that ds'2 = ds2 necessarily leads to the conclusion that (delta)s' = (delta)s, indicating a potential gap in the argument presented.
  • This same participant mentions they have found an alternative proof based on the previous ideas shared.
  • A final participant suggests that to extend the argument to the finite case, one can simply integrate the relationships discussed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the mathematical relationships discussed, with some uncertainty about the completeness of the arguments presented. No consensus is reached on the validity of the reasoning or the conclusions drawn from it.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions regarding the nature of the transformations and the properties of the functions involved remain unaddressed. The discussion does not resolve the implications of the relationships between differentials and finite quantities.

ralqs
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Some time ago, I came across a nice justification (by Einstein IIRC) for the formula [tex]x'^2 + y'^2 + z'^2 - c^2t'^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 - c^2t^2[/tex].

The argument went something like this:
(1) [tex]x'^2 + y'^2 + z'^2 - c^2t'^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 - c^2t^2 = 0[/tex] for light.
(2) *reasoning I forget*, therefore [tex]x'^2 + y'^2 + z'^2 - c^2t'^2 = \sigma(x^2 + y^2 + z^2 - c^2t^2)[/tex]
(3) [tex]y'^2 = y^2[/tex], so [tex]\sigma = 1[/tex].

I can't remember or deduce the argument for step 2. I'm guessing it came down to some argument about linearity...does anyone have any ideas? Thanks.
 
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The argument is (ds')^2=f(p)ds^2+C

Where f(p) is some function of space, velocity, and time. The reason we can expect this form is that we can expect ds to at least be an infinitesimal of the same order when we make a coordinate change. You can get rid of C by your point (1). You can further say that f(p) cannot depend on space and time because of homogeneity and isotropy of space and homogeneity of time. You can go another step and say that f(p) can then only depend on the absolute value of the relative velocity. For the last step, you can transform to and back from ds' to ds to see that (f(p))^2=1. You conclude therefore that f(p)=1 (I don't recall the argument for dropping the negative 1 option).
 
Hmmm, that only proves that ds'2 = ds2, which doesn't necessarily mean that (delta)s' = (delta)s.

At any rate, I figured out another way of proving it based on your idea, so thanks anyways!
 
To go to the finite case, you can simply integrate.
 

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