Difference in formulas of magnetic force and magnetic flux

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the differences in the formulas for magnetic force and magnetic flux, specifically addressing the use of sine and cosine functions in these equations. Participants explore the implications of these differences in the context of physics, particularly in relation to moving charges and magnetic fields.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the magnetic force is defined as ## \rm F_e = Bqvsin\theta## and magnetic flux as ## \rm \phi = BAcos\theta##, questioning why sine is used in one and cosine in the other despite both involving the angle between two vectors.
  • One participant asks for clarification on the source of these equations and the geometries they apply to.
  • Another participant explains that the two formulas relate to different physical phenomena: the force on a moving charge versus the amount of flux threading a loop, suggesting that it is not surprising they use different trigonometric functions.
  • A later reply elaborates on the application of these formulas in the context of a loop spinning in a magnetic field, discussing how the angle affects the induced current and the relationship between the two formulas.
  • Participants discuss the conditions under which maximum force and maximum flux occur, noting that the sine function achieves maximum force when charges move perpendicular to the magnetic field, while the cosine function achieves maximum flux when the loop is perpendicular to the field.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of using sine and cosine in the formulas, with some agreeing on the distinct applications of each formula while others seek further clarification on the underlying principles. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the broader implications of these differences.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific geometries and applications, but there is no consensus on the definitions or assumptions underlying the use of sine and cosine in these contexts.

Faiq
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The magnetic force is defined as ## \rm F_e = Bqvsin\theta## and the magentic flux is defined as## \rm \phi = BAcos\theta##
My question is since we are multiplying the two vectors, why is ##sin\theta## used in one equation and ##cos\theta## in second given that ##\theta## is the angle between the two vectors?
 
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Faiq said:
The magnetic force is defined as ## \rm F_e = Bqvsin\theta## and the magentic flux is defined as## \rm \phi = BAcos\theta##
My question is since we are multiplying the two vectors, why is ##sin\theta## used in one equation and ##cos\theta## in second given that ##\theta## is the angle between the two vectors?
Can you say more about where you got those equations? What geometries are they for?
 
Faiq said:
The magnetic force is defined as ## \rm F_e = Bqvsin\theta## and the magentic flux is defined as## \rm \phi = BAcos\theta##
My question is since we are multiplying the two vectors, why is ##sin\theta## used in one equation and ##cos\theta## in second given that ##\theta## is the angle between the two vectors?
One is the force on a moving charge, one is the amount of flux threading a loop - not sure why you expect then to both have the same sin-cos function.
The application where both "formulas" come together is when you have a loop spinning in a magnetic field.
You can work out the expected current in the loop by considering the change in flux through the loop, or the force on each of the charges in the wire of the loop as it moves.
(A square loop with (rather than a circular one) is easier to conceptualise using the moving charges method - but using the flux change method any shape loop will do.)
According to the first formula, the maximum driving force on the charges occurs when they are moving perpendicular to the field - which occurs when the loop is "side-on" to the field and the electrons in the side wires are moving at right angles to the field as the loop rotates.
In that situation, the flux threading the loop is zero.
So the angle used wants a maximum for one "formula" and a minimum for the other. The sin and cos functions achieve that.
(note: when the loop is side-on, the slightest rotation causes a (relatively) large change to the amount of flux that can thread the loop - so the "rate of change of flux" method will be returning maximum current induced in the loop at that time as well.
When the loop is perpendicular to the field (square on), maximum flux threads the loop, but small rotations hardly change that amount, so little or no current is induced by rotation at that point. At that time, the electrons in the side wires are moving parallel to the field, so little to no force on them is created.
Using degrees for ease of input to your calculator, find cos 0 - cos 1 (that's cos zero minus cos one) and compare it to cos 89 - cos 90. That will give you the relative sizes of change in flux for a 1 degree change in rotational position in the side-on, square-on positions.
 
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