I Does gas flow from low to high pressure?

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Gas flows from high to low pressure, but in certain conditions, it can appear to flow from low to high pressure due to velocity changes, as described by Bernoulli's principle. The discussion highlights that in a Venturi tube, the pressure is lower in the constricted section where gas velocity is higher, leading to a pressure drop across the constriction. This can create confusion when interpreting manometer readings, as they measure static pressure rather than dynamic pressure. The flow dynamics indicate that while gas can move from a lower pressure region to a higher pressure region, it requires sufficient inertia and is influenced by the pressure gradient. Understanding these principles clarifies how gas behaves in various flow scenarios, including compressors and other systems.
  • #91
Sailor Al said:
But have you answered the problem: What is the flow rate in g/sec of the air in the system?
(And BTW, how do you embed images in your replies? I'm using Chrome on a Mac and the toolbar - for text styles, formatting, link embedding, image pasting etc. -is displayed in red and inactive. )
Yeah...its right there in variable form...Plug in whatever values for ##P_A,T_A## you desire and the mass flow rate can be computed (with the aid of thermodynamic tables for the specific enthalpy of air)? So, No...I did not bother to evaluate anything yet. For starters, you don't have chamber A pressure specified. So I can't.

I make the graphics in PowerPoint, the copy paste them into the body of the reply.
 
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  • #92
Sailor Al said:
(And BTW, how do you embed images in your replies? I'm using Chrome on a Mac and the toolbar - for text styles, formatting, link embedding, image pasting etc. -is displayed in red and inactive. )
When you are creating a post, there's a button at the lower left corner - Attach files. Use it to attach whatever image you want to embed in the post. Once the image is attached, a small image will be shown. At the top left, it says Insert... Click on it to choose from Thumbnail or Full image. I normally choose Full image.
 
  • #93
Mark44 said:
When you are creating a post, there's a button at the lower left corner...
Ah, thanks - that works. I guess the text editing menu is still not available like when stating a thread.
 
  • #94
erobz said:
So, No...I did not bother to evaluate anything yet. For starters, you don't have chamber A pressure specified. So I can't.
I am working to a solution that deduces both the pressure in chamber and the flow rate from the water levels in the manometers. I think, with the assumptions I have provided about the state of the system, (dimensions, temp, pressures etc) that both the flow rate and the pressures in A, B and C can be calculated as well as the the temperatures and densities in the three chambers.
I was interested that I unthinkingly chose φ to symbolise the flow rate as it turns out to be the symbol for flux in electro/magnetic field theory and has very similar properties. I'm currently using the flux density B to quantify the flow rate per area (gm/sec/cm^2) to calculate the pressure in chamber B.
 
  • #95
Sailor Al said:
I am working to a solution that deduces both the pressure in chamber and the flow rate from the water levels in the manometers. I think, with the assumptions I have provided about the state of the system, (dimensions, temp, pressures etc) that both the flow rate and the pressures in A, B and C can be calculated as well as the the temperatures and densities in the three chambers.
I was interested that I unthinkingly chose φ to symbolise the flow rate as it turns out to be the symbol for flux in electro/magnetic field theory and has very similar properties. I'm currently using the flux density B to quantify the flow rate per area (gm/sec/cm^2) to calculate the pressure in chamber B.
Great. Before you post those workings please take a moment to learn how to typeset mathematics in this space See: LaTeX Guide
 
  • #96
erobz said:
Great. Before you post those workings please take a moment to learn how to typeset mathematics in this space See: LaTeX Guide
I have recently become aware of Latex and will certainly do that.
 
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  • #97
I think the following statements are a bit wooly and can be tidied up, but I think they are important.
In a venturi, a low pressure occurs in the narrow section when the fluid is either liquid or gas.
With liquid, the pressure change is due to the "trading" of potential energy and kinetic energy by a change in momentum of the fluid. Since liquid is incompressible, i.e its density is constant, and so the mass per unit volume is constant, the momentum change arises from a change in the speed of the fluid.
With gas, the low pressure is due to the "trading" of the components of the gas energy, i.e. PV and nRT, and occurs through a change in density, pressure and temperature . This "trading" can be handled mathematically using the density version of the Ideal Gas Law : PM = dRT .
That's the theory I'm using to work up the answer.
 
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  • #98
Sailor Al said:
I am working up a solution to the above venturi problem using :
a) The density version of the Ideal Gas Laws: PM = dRT.
where P = Pressure in Atmospheres
M = Molar mass of the air is 28.9
R = 0.821 atm litres/°Kelvin
T = temperature in °K
d = density in grams/litre.
Dammit! I have been confused by pressure units.
R, the gas constant is not 0.821, but 0.0821 atm litres/°K
No wonder my numbers don't make sense.
At STP (273°K, 1 atm) the density of air, d, is 1.29 grams/litre
So ##PM = 1 * 28.9 = 28.9##
and ##dRT = 1.29 * 0.0821 * 273 = 28.9##
So PM = dRT finally balances for atmospheric air at STP.
 
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  • #99
Sailor Al said:
I guess the text editing menu is still not available like when stating a thread.
The text-editing menu is not available when the BB code mode is off. This control is a pair of brackets [ ] almost all the way to the right in the menu bar at the top of the input pane. This control is a toggle.
 
  • #100
1685281539812.png


I'll explain my result while you are working it out.

Applying hydrostatics in the manometers we have that (neglecting the weight of the gas):

$$ P_{ref} = P_A + \rho_w g l_A = P_B + \rho_w g l_B $$

$$ \implies P_B = P_A + \rho_w g \left( l_A - l_B\right) \tag{1} $$

This relates the pressures in chamber A to chamber B, put that aside for now.

Next, apply the First Law of Thermodynamics to the control volume(flow properties assumed uniform over section A and B):

$$ \dot E_{cv} = \dot Q_{cv} - \dot W_{cv} + \dot m_A \left( u_A + \frac{P_A}{ \rho_A } + \frac{ V^2_A }{2} + gz_A \right) - \dot m_B \left( u_B + \frac{P_B}{ \rho_B } + \frac{ V^2_B }{2} + gz_B \right)$$

Assumptions:
  1. Ideal Gas
  2. Polytropic Process ##PV^{\gamma} = \text{constant}## where for Air ##\gamma = 1.4##
  3. Steady State ##\dot E = 0## and ## \dot m_A=\dot m_B = \dot m##
  4. The gas in passing from chamber A to B expands adiabatically (without heat transfer with the surroundings) ##\dot Q_{cv} = 0##
  5. There is no work the gas is doing on the surroundings nor are the surroundings doing work on the gas in the control volume ## \dot W_{cv} = 0 ##
  6. The terms ## u + \frac{P}{ \rho }## are combined for convenience into the term referred to as the enthalpy ##h##
  7. Change in gravitational potential ##\Delta PE = g ( z_A - z_B) = 0 ##

Applying the assumptions to the 1st Law we are left with:

$$ 0 = h_A - h_B + \frac{V^2_A - V^2_B}{2} \tag{2}$$

The enthalpy terms for an ideal gas are purely functions of temperature and are to be evaluated by engineering thermodynamic tables.

Otherwise, they are defined as:

$$\Delta h = \int c_p dT$$

Where knowledge of how ##c_p## varies with temperature is required to evaluate the integral for a particular gas.

In order to evaluate the change in enthalpy, we are using assumption 2 for the adiabatic expansion of an ideal gas:

$$ T_B = T_A \left( \frac{P_B}{P_A} \right)^{ \frac{ 1- \gamma}{ \gamma } } \tag{3}$$

Subbing 1 into 3 for ##P_B##, we see that the temperature of the flow in chamber B is fully constrained by the initial state ##P_A,T_A## under the adiabatic assumption.

$$ T_B = T_A \left( \frac{ P_A + \rho_w g \left( l_A - l_B\right)}{P_A} \right)^{ \frac{ 1- \gamma}{ \gamma } } \tag{3'}$$

Using this result we will say that:

$$ h_B( T_B) - h_A(T_A)= \frac{V^2_A - V^2_B}{2} \tag{2'}$$

Next the velocity of B as a function of A via continuity (conservation of mass):

$$ \dot m = \rho_A A V_A = \rho_B a V_B $$

Where ##A## and ##a## refer to the cross sectional areas of section A and B respectively.

$$ \implies V_B = \frac{\rho_A}{\rho_B}\frac{A}{a} V_A \tag{4} $$

Subbing ##4## into ##2'##:

$$ h_B( T_B) - h_A(T_A)= \frac{V^2_A - \left( \frac{\rho_A}{\rho_B}\frac{A}{a} \right)^2 V_A^2}{2} \tag{5}$$

$$ \implies h_B( T_B) - h_A(T_A) = \frac{V^2_A}{2} \left( 1 - \left( \frac{\rho_A}{\rho_B} \right)^2 \left( \frac{A}{a} \right)^2 \right) \tag{5} $$

Next we would like to eliminate the density ratio by using the Ideal Gas Law:

$$ \frac{P_A}{P_B} = \frac{ \rho_A}{\rho_B} \frac{T_A}{T_B} $$

$$ \implies \frac{\rho_A}{\rho_B} = \frac{P_A}{P_B} \frac{T_B}{T_A} \tag{6} $$

Plugging ##6## into ##5##:

$$ \implies h_B( T_B) - h_A(T_A) = \frac{V^2_A}{2} \left( 1 - \left( \frac{P_A}{P_B} \frac{T_B}{T_A}\right)^2 \left( \frac{A}{a} \right)^2 \right) \tag{7} $$

Using the adiabatic assumption we can eliminate ## \frac{T_B}{T_A}## in ##7## with ##3## :

$$ \frac{P_A}{P_B} \frac{T_B}{T_A} = \frac{P_A}{P_B} \left( \frac{P_B}{P_A} \right)^{ \frac{ 1- \gamma}{ \gamma } } = \frac{P_B}{P_A}^{(-1)} \left( \frac{P_B}{P_A} \right)^{ \frac{ 1- \gamma}{ \gamma } } = \left( \frac{P_A}{P_B} \right)^{\frac{1}{\gamma}}$$

Subbing that into ##7##:

$$ \implies h_B(T_B) - h_A(T_A) = \frac{V^2_A}{2} \left( 1 - \left( \frac{P_A}{P_B} \right)^{ \frac{2}{\gamma}} \left( \frac{A}{a} \right)^2 \right) \tag{8} $$

##8## can now be rearranged to solve for ##V_A##:

$$ V_A = \sqrt{ \frac{ 2 \left( h_B(T_B) - h_A(T_A) \right) }{ 1 - \left( \frac{P_A}{P_B} \right)^{ \frac{2}{\gamma}} \left( \frac{A}{a} \right)^2 } } \tag{9}$$

Finally the mass flowrate is given by:

$$ \dot m = \rho_A A V_A = \frac{P_A}{R T_A} A \sqrt{ \frac{ 2 \left( h_B(T_B) - h_A(T_A) \right) }{ 1 - \left( \frac{P_A}{P_B} \right)^{ \frac{2}{\gamma}} \left( \frac{A}{a} \right)^2 } } \tag{10}$$

Where ##T_B## is given by:

## T_B = T_A \left( \frac{P_B}{P_A} \right)^{ \frac{ 1- \gamma}{ \gamma } }##

and ##P_B## by:

##P_B = P_A + \rho_w g \left( l_A - l_B\right)##

and the enthalpies ##h(T_B), h(T_A)## evaluated by tables commonly found in Thermodynamic texts.

Thats my best crack at it. Hope it helps.
 
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  • #101
Mark44 said:
The text-editing menu is not available when the BB code mode is off. This control is a pair of brackets [ ] almost all the way to the right in the menu bar at the top of the input pane. This control is a toggle.
Aha! Now I see it!
Maybe a couple pf paras in the INFO section, alerting relative newbies such as me to the fact that this forum implements some pretty fancy features, and a Dummies guide to some of them. Till today, despite 40+ years of S/W development and extensive experience in web app development, I hadn't come across "BB code". Just a thought. :wink:
 
  • #102
Sailor Al said:
Maybe a couple pf paras in the INFO section, alerting relative newbies such as me to the fact that this forum implements some pretty fancy features, and a Dummies guide to some of them.
Check out the Help menu item under INFO. The Help menu item links to tutorials on LaTeX (near the top) and to the BBCode tags that are supported (down quite a ways in the list).
 
  • #103
erobz said:
Thats my best crack at it. Hope it helps
I see a huge amount of working, but I still don't see an answer to the stated problem: to determine the mass flow rate through the system.
I still don't have an answer, but am still working on it.
I would expect the answer to me in the order of 10-2 or 10-3 grams per sec.
 
  • #104
Sailor Al said:
I see a huge amount of working, but I still don't see an answer to the stated problem: to determine the mass flow rate through the system.
I still don't have an answer, but am still working on it.
I would expect the answer to me in the order of 10-2 or 10-3 grams per sec.
Give me a pressure and temperature of the gas in chamber A and you will have an answer…if you don’t accept the 1st law of thermodynamics, just say so and I’ll stop wasting my time.
 
  • #105
erobz said:
Give me a pressure and temperature of the gas in chamber A and you will have an answer…if you don’t accept the 1st law of thermodynamics, just say so and I’ll stop wasting my time.
I have specified the temperature in chamber A is 0°C 273 °K.
The pressure can be determined using hydrostatics from the heights of the water columns provided i the problem statement in post #65:
Sailor Al said:
By deducing the scale of the image, I have done some rough estimates of the manometer pipe diameter and thus the heights of the water and wonder how we could calculate the flow rate in Kg/sec of the gas through the system?
Estimate of the diameter of the manometer tubes: 8 mm
Scale: say 1:1,
Measured heights above red line:
A = 0 mm
B = 97 mm - allowance for narrowing at the top, say 95 mm
C = 53mm
95 + 53 = 148 /3 = 47
1 Atm = 10332 mm = 101,325 Pa (x 9.8)
Each mm is 9.8 Pa

It seems obvious that the flow rate in each section has to be the same.
I think we'll need to take into account the temperature of the gas as it passes through the system, and make a guess at the ambient air conditions (20°C, 101.3kPa?) Also something about the diameters of the various chambers through which the gas flows.
My measurements of the water heights in A,B and C are:
S mm
A 0
B 95
C 53
I think the first step is to work out the pressure in A, B and C, but as they are mutually dependent, I'm not sure where to start. I think the heights would be different if the manometer tubes were independent of each other.
and #86
And some assumptions about the system:
a) The air behaves as an Ideal Gas.
b) There is no heat transfer between the gas and the surrounding glass tubes.
c)The temperature of the gas at chamber A is 0°C or 273°K
d)The inside diameter of the cylindrical chambers A and C is 1.6 cm, giving a cross-section area 2.01 cm^2
e)The inside diameter of cylindrical chamber B is 0.5 cm: cross-section area 0.196 cm^2
f) The ambient air has a temperature of 20°C and pressure of 1033 cm water.
g) the heights of the water columns in the manometer tubes A, B and C are 0, 9.5 and 5.3 cm resp.

Absolutely no problem with the first law of thermodynamics: energy cannot be created or destroyed.
 
  • #106
Sailor Al said:
I have specified the temperature in chamber A is 0°C 273 °K.
The pressure can be determined using hydrostatics from the heights of the water columns provided i the problem statement in post #65
Whatever you say…It’s apparent I’ve already wasted my time. Good day sir.
 
  • #107
erobz said:
Whatever you say…It’s apparent I’ve already wasted my time. Good day sir.
You asked for the pressure and temperature in chamber A.
The pressure, from hydrostatics is 1017.8 x 103 dynes/cm2
The temp is 0°C or 273°K
 
  • #108
Sailor Al said:
I see a huge amount of working, but I still don't see an answer to the stated problem: to determine the mass flow rate through the system.
This is a really disheartening thing to say, especially because in his very long post #100 @erobz gives in his equation 10 literally his answer to your question. It literally gives you his equation of the mass flow rate, he's only asking you to do a bit of effort and plug in the numbers yourself... Don't you see that?
 
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  • #109
Arjan82 said:
This is a really disheartening thing to say, especially because in his very long post #100 @erobz gives in his equation 10 literally his answer to your question. It literally gives you his equation of the mass flow rate, he's only asking you to do a bit of effort and plug in the numbers yourself... Don't you see that?
They are actually saying I didn't go far enough with that "huge working". I think it's their presentation of "you're wrong and I'm right, but I can't tell you why" is what strikes a nerve with everyone they seem to interact with...

That being said, In this case (after getting some sleep) It dawned on me that we have another equation that starts the whole process over again. This time it's the cliff notes version.

Assumption:
The gas is undergoing an adiabatic expansion from A to C ( ? I have less confidence that there is no heat transfer with the surroundings between A and C as I do in gong from A to B )

Hydrostatics:
$$ P_C = P_A + \rho_w g ( l_A - l_C ) $$

First Law:
$$ 0 = h_A - h_C + \frac{V^2_A- V^2_C}{2}$$

$$ \implies V_C = \sqrt{2 \left( h_A(T_A) - h_C(T_C) \right) + V^2_A} $$

Adiabatic Expansion:

$$ T_C = T_A \left( \frac{P_C}{P_A} \right)^{ \frac{1-\gamma}{\gamma}} = T_A \left( \frac{ P_A + \rho_w g ( l_A - l_C ) }{P_A} \right)^{ \frac{1-\gamma}{\gamma}} $$

Conservation of Mass (Steady State):

$$\dot m = \rho_C A V_C = \rho_A A V_A $$

$$ \implies \rho_C V_C = \rho_A V_A $$

Sub all that in along with the Ideal Gas Law:

$$ \frac{P_A + \rho_w g ( l_A - l_C )}{R T_A \left( \frac{ P_A + \rho_w g ( l_A - l_C ) }{P_A} \right)^{ \frac{1-\gamma}{\gamma}} } \sqrt{2 \left( h_A(T_A) - h_C(T_C) \right) + V^2_A} = \frac{P_A}{RT_A} V_A $$

Where:

##T_C = T_A \left( \frac{P_C}{P_A} \right)^{ \frac{1-\gamma}{\gamma}} = T_A \left( \frac{ P_A + \rho_w g ( l_A - l_C ) }{P_A} \right)^{ \frac{1-\gamma}{\gamma}}##

##T_B = T_A \left( \frac{P_B}{P_A} \right)^{ \frac{1-\gamma}{\gamma}} = T_A \left( \frac{ P_A + \rho_w g ( l_A - l_B ) }{P_A} \right)^{ \frac{1-\gamma}{\gamma}}##

##V_A = \sqrt{ \frac{ 2 \left( h_B(T_B) - h_A(T_A) \right) }{ 1 - \left( \frac{P_A}{P_B} \right)^{ \frac{2}{\gamma}} \left( \frac{A}{a} \right)^2 } }##

## P_B = P_A + \rho_w g ( l_A - l_B) ##

## h_B(T_B) = \int_{0}^{T_B} c_p(T)dT ##

## h_C(T_C) = \int_{0}^{T_C} c_p(T)dT ##

"In theory" "you might be able to determine ##P_A##, and then ##\dot m##, but ##P_A## is not only buried in a sea of symbols, but also some of those symbols ##h_B(T_B), h_C(T_C)## it finds itself buried in a non-linear function, which is then buried in a limit of an integral...It's a real pickle of an equation.

At this point I fully expect @Sailor Al to say , "but I still don't see an answer to my question", To which I say :partytime:
 
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  • #110
Sailor Al said:
You asked for the pressure and temperature in chamber A.
The pressure, from hydrostatics is 1017.8 x 103 dynes/cm2
The temp is 0°C or 273°K
Just out of curiosity...Are you saying you have solved for the pressure independently and this is what you find from your workings? Or are you saying, "just say the pressure is X"?

After further consideration I believe you are correct that for a particular state of the three manometers taken as a system of measurements (under adiabatic assumption) the initial state in chamber A will be fixed given the temperature of the gas in chamber A. I "imagined" it's the case that if we change the initial state, the state of all three manometers would change accordingly. In other words, I think there is a one-to-one correspondence between the state of the manometers and the initial state of the flow.

So...Short of solving the equation developed in #109 above, we should be able to specify a pressure ##P_A## and use it to determine the manometer C reading iteratively adjusting ##P_A## making sure ##P_C + \rho_w g l_C =P_A + \rho_w g l_A## is satisfied.

Taking the kids fishing! Maybe tomorrow.
 
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  • #111
erobz said:
Just out of curiosity...Are you saying you have solved for the pressure independently and this is what you find from your workings? Or are you saying, "just say the pressure is X"?
I believe the pressure solution is straightforward hydrostatics.
Here's my working:
With the air tap open, the water levels are 0, 9.5 and 5.3 cm above datum. [1]
When the air tap is closed and the system in equilibrium, the chambers are filled with air at, shall we say NTP (293°K, 1033 cm H2O) and so , since there's a fixed amount of water in the tubes, the tubes will have the same water level of 4.933 cm (average of [1]) . Let's round that it to 4.9
With the tap closed, the pressure at the datum level in the water will be the sum of the Atmospheric pressure and the hydrostatic pressure : P = 1033 + 4.9 = 1037.9 cm of H2O
With the tap open then, in cm of H2O, the pressures at the datum level will be:
PA = 1033 + 4.9 = 1037.9 (no water, so pressure due entirely to air pressure)
PB = 1033 - 4.6 = 1028.4
PC = 1033 - 0.4 = 1033.0
And 1037.9 cm of H2O converts to 1017.8 dynes/cm2
I was deeply worried by the apparent simplicity of the solution, but it seems ok to me.
A couple of thoughts.
1.) If, instead of having two wide chambers separated by a narrowed one, we had 10, 100 or ##\infty## chambers and the appropriate quantity of water to get the level at 4.9 cm in all of them, when we turned on the air tap, would we see the pattern of 0, 9.5, 0, 9.5, 0, 9.5 ....repeated indefinitely? I think so.
2) If, in this thought experiment, we then turned on the air tap, how long would it take for the the system to settle down? We'd probably have to decide the length of each section and the length of each nozzle/diffuser. I think the answer would be very similar to the answer to the piston in the infinite tube.
[ADD] 3) And what difference would it make if the system terminated with a wide chamber or a narrow chamber? [/ADD]
But let's press on with this one.
I'm deeply mired in attempting to balance mass flow rate - which I now identify as flux ##\phi##, flux density B, and linear density ##\mu##. I'm working strictly in CGS units as the pressure and Ideal Gas constants get too confusing. I am re-phrasing PM = dRT, to P = cT, where c = R/M or 2.88 106 cm2/sec2 for Air with a Molar mass of 28.95

Since this thread has passed the 100 post mark, should I request it be closed and start afresh?
 
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  • #112
Sailor Al said:
Since this thread has passed the 100 post mark, should I request it be closed and start afresh?
No. A new thread would imply a new question/topic, but that is not the case here. We have no hard limit on how many posts a thread can have. The question is (a) whether you will ever be satisfied with any answer anyone else gives you, (b) whether you will find an answer that satisfies you on your own, and (c) whether, if you do find an answer on your own, it will actually be correct.

Based on the thread so far, I'm very pessimistic about (a) since you have already been given valid answers and have not accepted them. I am not even going to try and speculate about (b) and (c).
 
  • #113
PeterDonis said:
No. A new thread would imply a new question/topic, but that is not the case here. We have no hard limit on how many posts a thread can have. The question is (a) whether you will ever be satisfied with any answer anyone else gives you, (b) whether you will find an answer that satisfies you on your own, and (c) whether, if you do find an answer on your own, it will actually be correct.

Based on the thread so far, I'm very pessimistic about (a) since you have already been given valid answers and have not accepted them. I am not even going to try and speculate about (b) and (c).
OK, I just suspect the length of the thread might discourage the involvement of new members.
And, if my may, with respect point out that the answers so far have shown workings, but no solutions. The problem posed was to derive the mass flow rate in Kg/sec from the presented experiment.
Please be assured that I will be satisfied with (a). I have not yet found (b) and (c) if I do, I will certainly subject it to the forum for scrutiny to determine if it is correct.
 
  • #114
Sailor Al said:
I just suspect the length of the thread might discourage the involvement of new members.
That might well be the case. You should perhaps consider that as a sign that you have gone astray, and that rather than continuing to post lengthy calculations that no one else will read, you should look at the valid answers you have already been given and see whether they might not be sufficient, so that the thread would not need to be prolonged further.

Sailor Al said:
with respect point out that the answers so far have shown workings, but no solutions
You're quibbling. You have already been pointed at explicit formulas for the quantities of interest. If you are unable or unwilling to do the work yourself of plugging numbers (all of which you already have) into those formulas to get numerical answers, then this thread will indeed be closed forthwith. It is not any other poster's job to hold your hand and do all your work for you. We expect you to be able to take valid equations and work with them yourself to get a final numerical answer.

Sailor Al said:
The problem posed was to derive the mass flow rate in Kg/sec from the presented experiment.
And you have been given an explicit equation for the mass flow rate. Use it.
 
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  • #115
Sailor Al said:
Please be assured that I will be satisfied with (a).
You can say that all you want, but your actual behavior in this thread has been to ignore valid answers because the people who gave them too you assumed you had enough intelligence and common sense to know how to plug numbers into formulas for yourself. Is that not the case?
 
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  • #116
PeterDonis said:
No. A new thread would imply a new question/topic, but that is not the case here.
I realise that at post #65, I did indeed pose a new question. The original question was how the gas appeared to be flowing from low to high pressure despite the (now clearly incorrect) assumption that, like water flowing uphill, gas would only flow from high to low. That was comprehensively and satisfactorily resolved by pointing out that my assumption was wrong. Water does flow uphill in a syphon or a U-bend. Gas does flow from low to high pressure in a venturi.
The question I then posed in #65 was to work out the actual mass flow rate in the venturi experiment presented in the video. That was a different question and maybe it is appropriate to present it in a new thread.
 
  • #117
Sailor Al said:
I believe the pressure solution is straightforward hydrostatics.
Here's my working:
With the air tap open, the water levels are 0, 9.5 and 5.3 cm above datum. [1]
When the air tap is closed and the system in equilibrium, the chambers are filled with air at, shall we say NTP (293°K, 1033 cm H2O) and so , since there's a fixed amount of water in the tubes, the tubes will have the same water level of 4.933 cm (average of [1]) . Let's round that it to 4.9
With the tap closed, the pressure at the datum level in the water will be the sum of the Atmospheric pressure and the hydrostatic pressure. In cm of H2O
P = 1033 4.9 cm
With the tap open then, in cm of H2O, the pressures at the datum level will be:
PA = 1033 + 4.9 = 1037.9
PB = 1033 - 4.6 = 1028.4
PC = 1033 - 0.4 = 1033.0
And 1037.9 cm of H2O converts to 1017.8 dynes/cm2
I was deeply worried by the apparent simplicity of the solution, but it seems ok to me.
A couple of thoughts.

No,No, and No.

You are trying to tell me that lab pressure is 0.06 psi gage... and there is a flow in this apparatus that causes 100% thermal loss of pressure in that short distance! There is about 4 cm H2O difference in pressure between chambers A and C ~0.06 psi. I'm sorry, this is just absurd. The beginning of the outlet would be vacuum...

What do you think happens if lab pressure is 30 psi gauge(which it is far more likely to be), what would the manometers read? Imagine this setup, but with a valve at the outlet initially closed. The initial equilibrium pressure is 30 psig. All three initial columns of water are (for all intents and purposes) unchanged from the last scenario, but the initial state is 30 psig, not 0.05 psig. So how do you reconcile that? It's like you are looking at that system and saying, the columns are equal, must be atmospheric pressure inside those chambers. Once the system is open it doesn't matter where the valve is placed.

Once the system is open, you cannot say anything about the pressure inside the manometers until you've done the analysis I proposed.
 
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  • #118
erobz said:
you are trying to tell me that lab pressure is 0.06 psi gage
0.06 psi is 4136.854 dynes/cm 2
My calculations give the over-pressure in chamber of 4802 dynes/cm which is 0.069 psi, so we're in the right ballpark.
[EDIT] there will be a pressure drop as the air enters chamber A from the supply.[/EDIT]
What's absurd about 4cm pressure difference between A and C?
I think, for the experiment, the gas pressure was seriously throttled to get the water level exactly to the base of tube A.
P.S. did you catch any fish?
 
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  • #119
Sailor Al said:
The question I then posed in #65 was to work out the actual mass flow rate in the venturi experiment
Yes, and you have been given a formula for that. That question is not identical to the question in the OP, but it's closely enough related that there doesn't need to be a new thread on it (particularly since it's already been discussed in this thread).
 
  • #120
Sailor Al said:
0.06 psi is 4136.854 dynes/cm 2
My calculations give the over-pressure in chamber of 4802 dynes/cm which is 0.069 psi, so we're in the right ballpark.
What's absurd about 4cm pressure difference between A and C?
I think, for the experiment, the gas pressure was seriously throttled to get the water level exactly to the base of tube A.
P.S. did you catch any fish?
1685402512509.png


We have the same system with a valve on the outlet, what is the pressure ##P_{ref}## at the base of the manometers?
 

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