Graph drawing—Finding the points on a curve that are nearest to the origin

Karol
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Homework Statement


Capture.JPG


Homework Equations


First derivative=maxima/minima/vertical tangent/rising/falling
When f'(x)>0 ? the function rises

The Attempt at a Solution


Deriving relative to x:
$$10x-6(yy'+x)+10yy'=0~\rightarrow~y'=-\frac{x}{y}$$
What do i do with that?
 

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Karol said:

Homework Statement


View attachment 215800

Homework Equations


First derivative=maxima/minima/vertical tangent/rising/falling
When f'(x)>0 ? the function rises

The Attempt at a Solution


Deriving relative to x:
$$10x-6(yy'+x)+10yy'=0~\rightarrow~y'=-\frac{x}{y}$$
What do i do with that?
You don't do anything with that. The quantity you want to minimize is distance, or ##x^2+y^2##. The curve is a 'constraint'. Do you know the Lagrange multiplier method?
 
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I don't know the Lagrange method and i am sure it's not to be used, since this chapter is the third in the book, and the book started from "scratch", it taught systematically, and it didn't teach it.
$$s=x^2+y^2~\rightarrow~s'=2x+2yy'$$
I insert ##~y'=-\frac{x}{y}~##: s'=0
So the distance is a constant and the equation is a circle.
$$5x^2-6xy+5y^2=4~\rightarrow~x^2+y^2=\frac{4+6xy}{5}$$
I don't know to get the radius and the center, but the circle's center isn't at the origin, so i need to find the line from the center to the origin and then intersect it with the circle to find the point closest.
 
Karol said:
I don't know the Lagrange method and i am sure it's not to be used, since this chapter is the third in the book, and the book started from "scratch", it taught systematically, and it didn't teach it.
$$s=x^2+y^2~\rightarrow~s'=2x+2yy'$$
I insert ##~y'=-\frac{x}{y}~##: s'=0
So the distance is a constant and the equation is a circle.
$$5x^2-6xy+5y^2=4~\rightarrow~x^2+y^2=\frac{4+6xy}{5}$$
I don't know to get the radius and the center, but the circle's center isn't at the origin, so i need to find the line from the center to the origin and then intersect it with the circle to find the point closest.

The curve is not a circle; it is a tilted ellipse.

You can proceed in one of two ways.
(1) Solve the curve equation for y in terms of x; that has two roots, one for the upper part of the curve, and one for the lower part. For each part you can substitute in your formula for y = y(x), to get a squared distance ##s = x^2 + y^2## that is a function of ##x## alone, then use standard calculus methods to find maxima and minima for each of the two parts.
(2) Alternatively, you can figure out how to rotate to a new (orthogonal) coordinate system ##(X,Y)##, so that when you substitute in ##x = a_1 X + a_2 Y, y=b_1 X + b_2 Y## you get a new curve ##F(X,Y) = 4## that has no cross-product terms ##XY## in it. For an orthogonal transformation we have ##x^2+y^2 = X^2 + Y^2##, so the problem is to maximize/minimize ##S = X^2 + Y^2## on the curve ##F(X,Y) = 4##. It is solvable by inspection, needing no calculus at all.
 
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Karol said:
I don't know the Lagrange method and i am sure it's not to be used, since this chapter is the third in the book, and the book started from "scratch", it taught systematically, and it didn't teach it.
$$s=x^2+y^2~\rightarrow~s'=2x+2yy'$$
I insert ##~y'=-\frac{x}{y}~##: s'=0
So the distance is a constant and the equation is a circle.
$$5x^2-6xy+5y^2=4~\rightarrow~x^2+y^2=\frac{4+6xy}{5}$$
I don't know to get the radius and the center, but the circle's center isn't at the origin, so i need to find the line from the center to the origin and then intersect it with the circle to find the point closest.
The curve would be a circle only if ##(6)xy## is constant , so that ##x^2+y^2## is itself constant. You don't have any condition guaranteeing this.
 
Ray Vickson said:
The curve is not a circle; it is a tilted ellipse.

, so the problem is to maximize ##S = X^2 + Y^2## on the curve ##F(X,Y) = 4##. It is solvable by inspection, needing no calculus at all.

Minimize S?
 
WWGD said:
Minimize S?
Minimum also solvable by inspection. Original message edited to include this.
 
Ray Vickson said:
Minimum also solvable by inspection. Original message edited to include this.
I agree, but, aren't we trying to find the minimal distance to the origin?
 
WWGD said:
I agree, but, aren't we trying to find the minimal distance to the origin?

Minimizing/maximizing ##S = x^2 + y^2## is equivalent to minimizing/maximizing ##\sqrt{S} = \sqrt{x^2 + y^2} = \text{distance to origin}.## However, the squared distance problem tends to be a bit easier, analytically at least.
 
  • #10
$$5x^2-6xy+5y^2=4~\rightarrow~5y^2-(6x)y+(5x^2-4)=0$$
$$y=\frac{6x\pm\sqrt{36x^2-20(5x^2-4)}}{10}$$
$$s=x^2+y^2~\rightarrow~s_{+y}=x^2+\left[ \frac{3x+2\sqrt{5-4x^2}}{5} \right]=-\frac{366}{25}x^2+12x\sqrt{5-4x^2}+20$$
$$s'_{+y}=-\frac{732}{25}x+12\frac{5-8x^2}{\sqrt{5-4x^2}}$$
$$s'_{+y}=0:~~\frac{x\sqrt{5-4x^2}}{5-8x^2}=\frac{275}{732}$$
I am sure i am wrong
 
  • #11
Karol said:
$$5x^2-6xy+5y^2=4~\rightarrow~5y^2-(6x)y+(5x^2-4)=0$$
$$y=\frac{6x\pm\sqrt{36x^2-20(5x^2-4)}}{10}$$
$$s=x^2+y^2~\rightarrow~s_{+y}=x^2+\left[ \frac{3x+2\sqrt{5-4x^2}}{5} \right]=-\frac{366}{25}x^2+12x\sqrt{5-4x^2}+20$$

I am sure i am wrong
The last row is wrong. You miss a square, and made some other mistakes. The denominator 25 divides the whole expression in the numerator.
$$s=x^2+y^2~\rightarrow~s_{+y}=x^2+\left[ \frac{3x+2\sqrt{5-4x^2}}{5} \right]^2$$
 
  • #12
The solution is very simple if you write the equation of the curve in polar coordinates r, θ. r is the distance from the origin, so you need to find the minimum r (or r^2) in terms of the angle θ.
 
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  • #13
One more approach:

Draw the picture.

apply ##GM \leq AM##

##xy = (x^2 y^2 )^{\frac{1}{2}} \leq \gamma (x^2 + y^2)##

where ##\gamma## is some positive scalar we don't need to worry about.

Via two different domain restrictions, you get conditions for maximum distance ##r^2## and minimum distance ##r^2##. (I.e. there are 4 quadrants in the graph, but you only need to worry about 2 of them, as symmetry then covers the other two.)
 
  • #14
$$s=x^2+y^2~\rightarrow~s_{+y}=x^2+\left[ \frac{3x+2\sqrt{5-4x^2}}{5} \right]^2$$
$$s_{+y}=\frac{6x+\sqrt{36x^2-100x^2+80}}{10}=x^2+\frac{1}{25}(12x\sqrt{5-4x^2}+20-7x^2)$$
$$s'_{+y}=2x+\frac{1}{25}\left[ 12\left( \sqrt{5-4x^2}-\frac{8x^2}{\sqrt{5-4x^2}} \right)-14x \right]$$
$$s'_{+y}=\frac{36}{25}x+\frac{12}{25}\cdot\frac{5-12x^2}{\sqrt{5-4x^2}}$$
That doesn't give an answer for ##~s'_{+y}=0##
 
  • #15
Er, #2 tells you the thing you have to minimise. Can you see that thing somewhere in the question? :oldwink:
 
  • #16
I minimize the distance ##~s=x^2+y^2##. in which question do you mean i don't see the distance? in my answer in #15?
The original question sure asks about the distance.
I correct a little mistake:
$$s'_{+y}=\frac{36}{25}x+\frac{12}{25}\cdot\frac{5-8x^2}{\sqrt{5-4x^2}}$$
But still it gives negative under the root, when i try to solve a quadratic equation
 
  • #17
Karol said:
I minimize the distance ##~s=x^2+y^2##. in which question do you mean i don't see the distance? in my answer in #15?
The original question sure asks about the distance.
I correct a little mistake:
$$s'_{+y}=\frac{36}{25}x+\frac{12}{25}\cdot\frac{5-8x^2}{\sqrt{5-4x^2}}$$
But still it gives negative under the root, when i try to solve a quadratic equation
I got positive under the square root. Show your work.
 
  • #18
Karol said:
I minimize the distance ##~s=x^2+y^2##. in which question do you mean

This question

Karol said:

Homework Statement


View attachment 215800
The equation that appears in the first line of the question #1 I don't seem to be able to reproduce here.
 
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  • #19
$$s'_{+y}=\frac{36}{25}x+\frac{12}{25}\cdot\frac{5-8x^2}{\sqrt{5-4x^2}}$$
$$\frac{36}{25}x=\frac{12}{25}\cdot\frac{5-8x^2}{\sqrt{5-4x^2}}$$
$$3x=\frac{5-8x^2}{\sqrt{5-4x^2}}~\rightarrow~3x\sqrt{5-4x^2}=5-8x^2$$
I make a square of each side:
$$9x^2(5-4x^2)=25-120x^2+64x^4$$
$$45x^2-36x^4=25-120x^2+64x^4$$
$$84x^2=100x^4+25~\rightarrow~100x^4-84x^2+25=0$$
$$x^2=a,~\frac{84+\sqrt{7056-10,000}}{200}$$
 
  • #20
Karol said:
$$s'_{+y}=\frac{36}{25}x+\frac{12}{25}\cdot\frac{5-8x^2}{\sqrt{5-4x^2}}=0$$
$$\frac{36}{25}x=\frac{12}{25}\cdot\frac{5-8x^2}{\sqrt{5-4x^2}}$$
The second equation is wrong
Karol said:
$$3x=\frac{5-8x^2}{\sqrt{5-4x^2}}~\rightarrow~3x\sqrt{5-4x^2}=5-8x^2$$
I make a square of each side:
$$9x^2(5-4x^2)=25-120x^2+64x^4$$
$$45x^2-36x^4=25-120x^2+64x^4$$
Wrong. Is 2x5x8=120?
 
  • #21
$$\frac{36}{25}x=\frac{12}{25}\cdot\frac{5-8x^2}{\sqrt{5-4x^2}}~\rightarrow~-\frac{36}{25}x=\frac{12}{25}\cdot\frac{5-8x^2}{\sqrt{5-4x^2}}$$
$$-3x=\frac{5-8x^2}{\sqrt{5-4x^2}}~\rightarrow~-3x\sqrt{5-4x^2}=5-8x^2$$
$$9x^2(5-4x^2)=25-80x^2+64x^4~\rightarrow~100x^4-125x^2+25=0$$
$$x^2=a,~~\frac{125+\sqrt{15,625-10,000}}{200}=\frac{125+75}{200}=1~~\rightarrow~x=1$$
$$5y^2-6y+1=0,~~y_1=1,~~y_2=\frac{1}{2}$$
These x and y are for the upper part of the ellipse, how will i decide whether it's y1 or y2? and also i took the positive x, but ##~x^2=a##
 
  • #22
Karol said:
$$9x^2(5-4x^2)=25-80x^2+64x^4~\rightarrow~100x^4-125x^2+25=0$$
The equation is equivalent to $$4x^4-5x^2+1=0$$, and there are two roots for x2. Find the corresponding y-s and check, if they are really roots of the original equation. Find the x,y pairs which result minimum s.
 
  • #23
The pairs (1,1) and (-1,-1) give true for the original equation.
##y'=-\frac{x}{y}~## and ##~y'(1,1)=0##, deflection point. ##~y'(-1,-1)=2~\rightarrow~## minimum
 
  • #24
Karol said:
The pairs (1,1) and (-1,-1) give true for the original equation.
##y'=-\frac{x}{y}~## and ##~y'(1,1)=0##, deflection point. ##~y'(-1,-1)=2~\rightarrow~## minimum
I don't follow you.
You have to minimize s=x2+y2.
X=1 y=1 gives s=1. What about the other root x2=1/4?
 
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  • #25
I expect you will get there in the end. But I do not think that your way of doing it is what the questioners want.
Sometimes these training questions require indeed a lot of slogging, but more often they are not but rather they want you to find the best way.
This question can be done either by little thought and hard calculations, or hard thought and easy calculations.
Even Outside textbook problems scientists and mathematicians look for simplifications of the problems.

I have managed to do this, that did take me some time - there are some traps or sticking places, and I am not yet 100 % satisfied with my formulation, bit I've got the answer. (May be related to same ideas as #12, but I do it staying in the original rectangular Cartesian coordinates.)

Useless to give it to you if you don't even take the first step, which is to answer my question #15 - for this also look back at your #3 .
 
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  • #26
$$s=x^2+y^2=x^2+[y(x)]^2~\rightarrow~4x^4-5x^2+1=0~\rightarrow~x_{1,2}=\pm 1$$
$$x_1=1~\mbox{in}~5x^2-6xy+5y^2=4:~y_{1,2}=1,\frac{1}{2}$$
$$(1,1)~\mbox{in}~5x^2-6xy+5y^2=4:~~\mbox{True}$$
$$\left( 1,\frac{1}{2} \right)~\mbox{in}~5x^2-6xy+5y^2=4:~\mbox{False}$$
$$x_2=-1~\mbox{in}~5x^2-6xy+5y^2=4:~y_{1,2}=-1,-\frac{1}{2}$$
$$(-1,-1)~\mbox{in}~5x^2-6xy+5y^2=4:~\mbox{True}$$
$$\left(1,\frac{1}{2} \right)~\mbox{in}~5x^2-6xy+5y^2=4:~\mbox{False}$$
So there are only two couples: (1,1) and (-1,-1) that make the original equation true.
I can't talk only about x2=1/4 because there should be couples, points.
 
  • #27
Karol said:
So there are only two couples: (1,1) and (-1,-1) that make the original equation true.
I can't talk only about x2=1/4 because there should be couples, points.
You certainly meant x2=1/4, x=±1/2, other solutions of the equation ##100x^4-125x^2+25=0##, with the possible y values. You should check which couples mean the points closest to the origin.
 
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  • #28
This is the graph of the curve 5x2-6xy-5y2=4. Are the points (1,1) and (-1,-1) really closest to the origin?
upload_2017-12-3_10-2-20.png
 

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  • #29
Well I thought all along it would have been helpful to you to draw a picture. You can’t do this
9t301x.jpg

- without numbers that come from a solution, But you can sketch something like this.
This would also help you see when you have some mistakes.
You have done a lot of work but I just can’t tell how close you are, because you produce just a series of equations with no explanation of you are doing, no narrative.

Here the radius of the circle is the required shortest distance. What Is the equation of a circle? How does this fit with the equation of the curve? What conditions have to be satisfied to get a situation like diagram?

Answering these questions can lead you to the answer with far less calculation than what you have been doing.
 

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  • #30
You are probably quite close to answer. This is what your solution gives.

kcxc94.jpg


Almost certain you have had an equality of squares and have made the choice of square roots between + and - that gives you a maximum instead of minimum. Easy mistake to make.
 

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  • #31
Ray Vickson said:
(2) Alternatively, you can figure out how to rotate to a new (orthogonal) coordinate system ##(X,Y)##, so that when you substitute in ##x = a_1 X + a_2 Y, y=b_1 X + b_2 Y## you get a new curve ##F(X,Y) = 4## that has no cross-product terms ##XY## in it. For an orthogonal transformation we have ##x^2+y^2 = X^2 + Y^2##, so the problem is to maximize/minimize ##S = X^2 + Y^2## on the curve ##F(X,Y) = 4##. It is solvable by inspection, needing no calculus at all.
Rotated coordinate sysytem:
$$X=x(\cos\alpha) + y(\sin\alpha)=ax+\sqrt{1-a^2}\cdot y$$
$$Y=x(-\sin\alpha) + y(\cos\alpha)=-\sqrt{1-a^2}\cdot x + ay$$
Because a horizontal ellipse is ##~k_1 x^2+k_2 y^2=1~##:
$$5x^2-6xy+5y^2=4~\rightarrow~\frac{5}{4}x^2-\frac{3}{2}xy+\frac{5}{4}y^2=1$$
$$\frac{5}{4}x^2-\frac{3}{2}xy+\frac{5}{4}y^2=\frac{5}{4}[ax+\sqrt{1-a^2}\cdot y]+\frac{5}{4}[\sqrt{1-a^2}\cdot x+ay]$$
This is the equation in order to find the ##~a=\cos\alpha~##, but the a "disappeared":
$$\frac{5}{4}x^2-\frac{3}{2}xy+\frac{5}{4}y^2=\frac{5}{4}(x^2+y^2)$$
 
  • #32
Isn't this problem easily solvable by considering a radial line with one end centred on the origin and the other end intercepting the problem curve . Conceptually sweep the line through a range of angles and calculate the length of the line between origin and intercept . Determine angles where line length is a minimum .

Edit : Essentially as proposed by @ehild in post #12 .
 
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  • #33
It seemed to me that you were nearly there before, and it was just a question of taking an alternative root, after all you got a maximum and getting the minimum is essentially part of the same calculation. So I wonder why you don’t complete that.

There is an alternative quite easy calculation that I keep hinting at as well.
 
  • #34
epenguin said:
It seemed to me that you were nearly there before, and it was just a question of taking an alternative root, after all you got a maximum and getting the minimum is essentially part of the same calculation. So I wonder why you don’t complete that.
I didn't complete since i discovered the mistake in the calculation and found that (0.5,0.5) solves also, and it's easy to compare the distance to the origin of the 2 solutions (1,1) and (0.5,0.5).
Now i want to solve in different methods and want to find the angle with which to rotate the axes like Ray said
 
  • #35
Karol said:
I didn't complete since i discovered the mistake in the calculation and found that (0.5,0.5) solves also, and it's easy to compare the distance to the origin of the 2 solutions (1,1) and (0.5,0.5).
Now i want to solve in different methods and want to find the angle with which to rotate the axes like Ray said

Just substitute ##x = X \cos \theta - Y \sin \theta## and ##y = X \sin \theta + Y \cos \theta## into your function ##f(x,y) = 5(x^2+y^2) -6 xy##, to get a function ##F(X,Y)##. Determine ##\theta## by requiring that there be no product term ##X Y## in the final ##F##.
 
  • #36
Karol said:
Now i want to solve in different methods and want to find the angle with which to rotate the axes like Ray said

Using polar coordinates might be the easiest method to find the extreme distances from the origin:

x = r cos(θ) ; y = r sin(θ) --> x2 + y2 = r2 . Rewrite the equation of the curve also in terms of r and θ.
Find the extremes of r2.
.
 
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  • #37
Well I think it is a shame having pushed your calculations nearly to a conclusion, not to give the final bit and the conclusion.
I expect your rotation idea will give some instruction.
As you have made a good effort I think it is okay for me to give what looks to me like the approach needing as minmal calculation as possible

On the ellipse defined by
$$5x^2-6xy+5y^2=4~~~~~~~~~~(1a)$$
or
$$x^2+y^2-\frac{6}{5}xy=\frac{4}{5}~~~~~~~~~~~~(1b)$$
as convenient, we seek points where r2 is minimum. I.e. it is necessary
$$\dfrac {d(r^2)}{dx}= 0 $$
which is
$$\dfrac {d}{dx}(x^2+y^2)= 0~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(2)$$
from which
$$\dfrac {dy}{dx}=-\dfrac {x}{y}~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(3)$$
as you already noted in #1.Along the curve defined by (1)
$$\dfrac {dy}{dx}=\dfrac {d}{dx}\left( x^{2\cdot }+y^{2}-\dfrac {6}{5}xy\right)~~~~(4)$$

But by (2) the equation dy/dx = 0 for the sought extremal points simplifies to

## \dfrac {dy}{dx}=\dfrac {d}{dx}\left( \dfrac {-6}{5}xy\right) =0## or just ##~~~\dfrac {dy}{dx}=\dfrac {d}{dx}\left(xy\right)=0 ~~~~(5)##

(We could also say the curve (in this case an ellipse) Is cotangent to the circle at this closest point (see fig. in #29) I.e. has the same slope as our circle at this point.)
At the extremal points then from (5)
$$\dfrac {dy}{dx}=-\dfrac {y}{x}~~~~~~~~~~~(6)$$
Comparing (6) with (3) therefore, at these points

##x^2=y^2##, so ##x=y## or ##x=-y##

Substituting these relations in (more conveniently) 1a you very easily get two values of ##x^2## and can quite easily conclude that the extremal points are (1, 1), (-1, -1) - those seen in #30 - and (-½, ½), (½, -½) seen in #(29).
 
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  • #38
epenguin said:
Well I think it is a shame having pushed your calculations nearly to a conclusion, not to give the final bit and the conclusion.
I expect your rotation of idea will give some instruction.
As you have made a good effort I think it is okay for me to give what looks to me like the approach needing as minmal calculation as possible

On the ellipse defined by
$$5x^2-6xy+5y^2=4~~~~~~~~~~(1a)$$
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How about an approach that does not need calculus at all? Setting ##x = r \cos \theta## and ##y = r \sin \theta##, the equation becomes
$$4 = 5 r^2 - 6 r^2 \sin \theta \; \cos \theta = r^2(5 - 3 \sin(2 \theta)), $$
or ##r^2 = 4/(5 - 3 \sin (2 \theta)).## For the first and second quadrants we have:
(1) Minimum ##r^2## ↔ maximum denominator ↔ ##\sin (2 \theta)=-1## ↔ ##2 \theta## = 270° ↔ ##\theta## = 135°, and ##-x = y > 0##.
(2) Maximum ##r^2## ↔ minimum denominator ↔ ##\sin(2 \theta)= 1## ↔ ## 2 \theta## = 90° ↔ ##\theta## = 45°, and ## x = y > 0##.
 
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  • #39
Ray Vickson said:
How about an approach that does not need calculus at all? Setting ##x = r \cos \theta## and ##y = r \sin \theta##, the equation becomes
$$4 = 5 r^2 - 6 r^2 \sin \theta \; \cos \theta = r^2(5 - 3 \sin(2 \theta)), $$
or ##r^2 = 4/(5 - 3 \sin (2 \theta)).## For the first and second quadrants we have:
(1) Minimum ##r^2## ↔ maximum denominator ↔ ##\sin (2 \theta)=-1## ↔ ##2 \theta## = 270° ↔ ##\theta## = 135°, and ##-x = y > 0##.
(2) Maximum ##r^2## ↔ minimum denominator ↔ ##\sin(2 \theta)= 1## ↔ ## 2 \theta## = 90° ↔ ##\theta## = 45°, and ## x = y > 0##.

Thank you for jogging me out of lazy calculus habit to reflect that it does not need to calculus to find that the slope of the tangent to a circle at point ##(x, y)## is ##-\frac{x}{y}##, nor does it for finding that to change the shape of a rectangle of sides ##x, y## while keeping the area constant equal to ##xy##, ##\dfrac {\Delta y}{\Delta x}=\dfrac {-y}{x}##. The problem does not need calculus, nor trigonometry either. :oldtongue:
 
  • #40
Ray Vickson said:
Just substitute ##x = X \cos \theta - Y \sin \theta## and ##y = X \sin \theta + Y \cos \theta## into your function ##f(x,y) = 5(x^2+y^2) -6 xy##, to get a function ##F(X,Y)##. Determine ##\theta## by requiring that there be no product term ##X Y## in the final ##F##.
$$5(x\cos-y\sin)^2-6(x\cos-y\sin)(x\sin+y\cos)+5(x\sin+y\cos)^2=4$$
Only the xy term:
$$\sin^2=\cos^2~\rightarrow~\alpha=\pm 45^0$$
The new ellipse:
$$5(X^2+Y^2)=4~\rightarrow~5\left[ \left( \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}x-\frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}y \right)^2+\left( \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}x+\frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}y \right)^2 \right]=4$$
$$s^2=X^2+Y^2=\left( \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}x-\frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}y \right)^2+\left( \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}x+\frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}y \right)^2=X^2$$
$$s=\pm X~\rightarrow~s'=\pm 1$$
It's not logical. when x=0 the distance is 0?
 
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  • #41
Karol said:
$$5(x\cos-y\sin)^2-6(x\cos-y\sin)(x\sin+y\cos)+5(x\sin+y\cos)^2=4$$
Only the xy term:
$$\sin^2=\cos^2~\rightarrow~\alpha=\pm 45^0$$
The new ellipse:
$$5(X^2+Y^2)=4~\rightarrow~5\left[ \left( \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}x-\frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}y \right)^2+\left( \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}x+\frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}y \right)^2 \right]=4$$
$$s^2=X^2+Y^2=\left( \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}x-\frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}y \right)^2+\left( \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}x+\frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}y \right)^2=X^2$$
$$s=\pm X~\rightarrow~s'=\pm 1$$
It's not logical. when x=0 the distance is 0?
No, you have made a number of serious errors.
If ##x = c X - sY## and ##y = sX+cY##, with ##c = \cos \theta, s = \sin \theta##, then ##5(x^2+y^2) = 5(X^2+Y^2)## and ##6 x y = cs(6X^2-6Y^2) +6XY(c^2-s^2)##.
The "##XY##" term is eliminated if ##c = s = 1/\sqrt{2}##, giving ##6xy = 3X^2 - 3Y^2##. Thus, ##F = 5(x^2+y^2)-6xy## ##= 5X^2+5Y^2-3X^2+3Y^2## ## = 2X^2 + 8Y^2.## The curve is ##2X^2 + 8Y^2 = 4##.
 
  • #42
$$2x^2+8y^2=4~\rightarrow~y^2=\frac{1}{2}-\frac{1}{4}x^2$$
$$s^2=x^2+y^2=x^2+\frac{1}{2}-\frac{1}{4}x^2=\frac{3}{4}x^2+\frac{1}{2}$$
$$s^2_{min}(x=0)=\frac{1}{4}~\rightarrow~s_{min}=\frac{1}{2}$$

StoneTemplePython said:
One more approach:
Draw the picture.
apply ##GM \leq AM##
##xy = (x^2 y^2 )^{\frac{1}{2}} \leq \gamma (x^2 + y^2)##
where ##\gamma## is some positive scalar we don't need to worry about.
Via two different domain restrictions, you get conditions for maximum distance ##r^2## and minimum distance ##r^2##. (I.e. there are 4 quadrants in the graph, but you only need to worry about 2 of them, as symmetry then covers the other two.)
$$5(x^2+y^2)-6xy=4~\rightarrow~xy=\frac{5}{6}(x^2+y^2)-\frac{2}{3}$$
$$\gamma (x^2 + y^2)=\gamma s^2 \geq (x^2 y^2 )^{\frac{1}{2}} = xy=\frac{5}{6}(x^2+y^2)-\frac{2}{3}$$
$$\gamma s^2 \leq \frac{12}{5-6\gamma}$$
It doesn't lead to anything.
I tried an other thing:
$$xy=\sqrt{x^2y^2}=\sqrt{ \left[ \frac{5}{6}(x^2+y^2)-\frac{2}{3} \right ]}^2=\left[ \frac{25}{36}(x^2+y^2)^2-\frac{20}{18}(x^2+y^2)+\frac{4}{9} \right]^{1/2} \leq \gamma(x^2+y^2)$$
No where
 
  • #43
Karol said:
$$2x^2+8y^2=4~\rightarrow~y^2=\frac{1}{2}-\frac{1}{4}x^2$$
$$s^2=x^2+y^2=x^2+\frac{1}{2}-\frac{1}{4}x^2=\frac{3}{4}x^2+\frac{1}{2}$$
$$s^2_{min}(x=0)=\frac{1}{4}~\rightarrow~s_{min}=\frac{1}{2}$$$$5(x^2+y^2)-6xy=4~\rightarrow~xy=\frac{5}{6}(x^2+y^2)-\frac{2}{3}$$
$$\gamma (x^2 + y^2)=\gamma s^2 \geq (x^2 y^2 )^{\frac{1}{2}} = xy=\frac{5}{6}(x^2+y^2)-\frac{2}{3}$$
$$\gamma s^2 \leq \frac{12}{5-6\gamma}$$
It doesn't lead to anything.
I tried an other thing:
$$xy=\sqrt{x^2y^2}=\sqrt{ \left[ \frac{5}{6}(x^2+y^2)-\frac{2}{3} \right ]}^2=\left[ \frac{25}{36}(x^2+y^2)^2-\frac{20}{18}(x^2+y^2)+\frac{4}{9} \right]^{1/2} \leq \gamma(x^2+y^2)$$
No where

##GM \leq AM## seems to be one of my favorite inequalities these days, so what I was thinking of was actually was

Karol said:
$$5x^2-6xy+5y^2=4~\rightarrow~x^2+y^2=\frac{4+6xy}{5}$$

your goal: minimize ##x^2+y^2 = LHS##. This is an equality, so the Left Hand Side (LHS) is minimized if and only if the Right Hand Side (RHS) is.

##RHS = \frac{4+6xy}{5} = \frac{4}{5} + \frac{6}{5}xy = constant + \frac{6}{5}xy##

an additive constant is not directly important in optimization problems (another way to think about why they get mapped to zero by the derivative operator), so the RHS is minimized if and only if ##\frac{6}{5}xy## is minimized which is minimized if and only if ##xy## is minimized.

Draw the picture and split cases into two.

Top right and bottom left quadrants of your graph
##RHS = constant + \frac{6}{5}\big \vert xy \big \vert##

the scaling is positive, so ##\frac{6}{5}\big \vert xy \big \vert \geq 0##

Top left and bottom right quadrants
##RHS = constant + \frac{3}{5}\Big(-1*\big \vert 2 xy \big \vert\Big)##

it's immediately apparent we want top left and bottom right quadrants, as we can scale the magnitude of ##\big \vert 2 xy \big \vert## by a negative number, and hence shrink the RHS.

Goal: maximize ##\big \vert 2 xy \big \vert##. Apply ##GM \leq AM##

##\big \vert 2 xy \big \vert = 2\big \vert x \big \vert \big \vert y \big \vert \leq \big \vert x\big \vert^2 + \big \vert y\big \vert^2 = x^2 + y^2##

with equality if and only if

## \big \vert x \big \vert= \big \vert y \big \vert ##

and since we are in top left and bottom right quadrants, this means

##x = -y##
- - - -
edit: to be extra clear, the above tells us that for minimization we're dealing in top left or bottom right quadrant, and we have

##x^2 + y^2 = constant + \frac{3}{5}\Big(-1*\big \vert 2 xy \big \vert\Big) \geq constant - \frac{3}{5} (x^2 + y^2)##

add ## \frac{3}{5} (x^2 + y^2)## to each side
thus we have

##\frac{8}{5}\big(x^2 + y^2\big) \geq constant##

giving you the minimum value

##\big(x^2 + y^2\big) \geq \frac{5}{8}constant##

and from above, we know reaching this minimum occurs if and only if ##x = -y##

- - - -

To be real clear, my approach is start by sketching the graph and looking at it. Then I look at the symbols involved -- in this case I see products on RHS and sums on LHS and I look for a way to go from products to sums. ##GM \leq AM## is one way to do this.
 
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  • #44
Karol said:
$$2x^2+8y^2=4~\rightarrow~y^2=\frac{1}{2}-\frac{1}{4}x^2$$
$$s^2=x^2+y^2=x^2+\frac{1}{2}-\frac{1}{4}x^2=\frac{3}{4}x^2+\frac{1}{2}$$
$$s^2_{min}(x=0)=\frac{1}{4}~\rightarrow~s_{min}=\frac{1}{2}$$

No! The original problem used ##x,y## and the rotated problem used ##X,Y##. These are not at all the same, and should never, ever, be mixed up! I hope you are starting to learn that it is important to be more careful.
 
  • #45
As can be seen I didn’t get it immediately, maybe somebody has hinted it, but isn’t the easiest method the old quadratic inequalities tricks?

Re-write the equation

$$5x^2-6xy+5y^2=4$$
as
$$ 8\left( x^{2}+y^{2}\right) =4+3\left( x+y\right) ^{2}$$
Then the smallest possible value of the squared distance from origin ##(x^2+y^2) ## is obtained when ##x=-y## and is ½. As ##x^2=y^2## at the points we easily obtain ##x=\pm \dfrac {1}{2},y= \mp \dfrac {1}{2}##, giving the required distance ##\sqrt {x^{2}+y^{2}}=\dfrac {1}{\sqrt {2}}##

Finding the points of maximum distance is left as an exercise for the reader. :oldsmile:
 
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  • #46
Ray Vickson said:
No! The original problem used ##x,y## and the rotated problem used ##X,Y##. These are not at all the same, and should never, ever, be mixed up! I hope you are starting to learn that it is important to be more careful.
$$2X^2 + 8Y^2 = 4~\rightarrow~Y^2=\frac{1}{2}-\frac{1}{4}X^2$$
$$s^2=X^2+Y^2=X^2+\frac{1}{2}-\frac{1}{4}X^2=\frac{3}{4}X^2+\frac{1}{2}$$
$$s^2_{min}(X=0)=\frac{1}{4}~\rightarrow~s_{min}=\frac{1}{2}$$
I just want to arrange the ##~GM \leq AM~## method.
$$GM \leq AM~\rightarrow~\frac{x+y}{2}\geqslant \sqrt{xy}~\rightarrow~\frac{x^2+y^2}{2}\geqslant \sqrt{x^2 y^2}=xy~\rightarrow~2xy\leqslant x^2+y^2$$
$$5(x^2+y^2)-6xy=4~\rightarrow~x^2+y^2=\frac{4}{5}-\frac{3}{5}\vert 2xy \vert \geqslant \frac{4}{5}-\frac{3}{5}(x^2y^2)$$
$$\frac{8}{5}(x^2y^2)\geqslant \frac{4}{5}~\rightarrow~x^2+y^2 \geqslant \frac{1}{2}$$
I will review now my original solution.
Karol said:
I don't know the Lagrange method and i am sure it's not to be used, since this chapter is the third in the book, and the book started from "scratch", it taught systematically, and it didn't teach it.
$$s=x^2+y^2~\rightarrow~s'=2x+2yy'$$
I insert ##~y'=-\frac{x}{y}~##: s'=0
So the distance is a constant and the equation is a circle.
$$5(x^2+y^2)-6xy=4~\rightarrow~10x-6(yy'+x)+10yy'=0~\rightarrow~y'=-\frac{x}{y}$$
Why isn't that correct? i know now it's an ellipse but what is wrong with the derivative of the distance?
 
  • #47
$$5(x^2+y^2)-6xy=4~\rightarrow~10x-6(yy'+x)+10yy'=0~\rightarrow~y'=-\frac{x}{y}$$
Why isn't that correct? i know now it's an ellipse but what is wrong with the derivative of the distance?
$$5(x^2+y^2) - 6xy=4 \: \Rightarrow 10 x + 10 y y' - 6 y - 6 xy' = 0 \; \Rightarrow y' = \frac{5x-3y}{3x-5y}.$$
 
  • #48
$$y' = \frac{5x-3y}{3x-5y},~~y'=0~\rightarrow~5x-3y=0~\rightarrow~y=\frac{5}{3}x$$
$$5(x^2+y^2)-6xy=4~\rightarrow~x^2=-\frac{18}{5}$$
 
  • #49
##y’=0## is not the point you are looking for - it is in no way an answer to the question. Look at pictures of the ellipse, e.g. #28 to see what points ##y’=0## corresponds to.
 
  • #50
Karol said:
$$y' = \frac{5x-3y}{3x-5y},~~y'=0~\rightarrow~5x-3y=0~\rightarrow~y=\frac{5}{3}x$$
$$5(x^2+y^2)-6xy=4~\rightarrow~x^2=-\frac{18}{5}$$

No, again. There are two expressions for ##y'##:
(1) From the optimality condition:
$$0 = \frac{d}{dx} (x^2+y^2) = 2 x + 2 y y' \Rightarrow y' = -\frac{x}{y}$$
(2) From the constraint:
$$ 0 = \frac{d}{dx} (5 x^2 + 5y^2 - 6 xy) = 10 x + 10 y y' - 6y - 6 xy' \Rightarrow y' = \frac{5x-3y}{3x-5y}$$
How would you use those two formulas for ##y'## to get further along towards a solution?
 
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