Griffiths E&M 3.33 write e-field of dipole moment in coordinate free form

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around expressing the electric field of a dipole in a coordinate-free form, specifically focusing on the equation for the electric field of a "pure" dipole. Participants are exploring the mathematical representation and geometric interpretations involved in this expression.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Mathematical reasoning, Problem interpretation

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss starting from the known electric field expression and attempt to manipulate it into the desired coordinate-free form. There are attempts to understand the geometric relationships between the vectors involved, particularly how to express components of the dipole moment in terms of spherical coordinates.

Discussion Status

Some participants have suggested that visualizing the problem through diagrams may aid in understanding the relationships between the vectors. Others have noted the challenge of working through the problem in a forward direction compared to a reverse approach, indicating a mix of strategies being explored without a clear consensus on the best method.

Contextual Notes

There is mention of the difficulty in manipulating the expressions geometrically and the reliance on visual aids as a potential method to clarify the relationships between the vectors. The discussion reflects a common challenge in physics problems where assumptions about coordinate systems and vector orientations are critical.

naele
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Homework Statement


Show that the electric field of a "pure" dipole can be written in the coordinate-free form

<br /> E_{dip}(r)=\frac{1}{4\pi\epsilon_0}\frac{1}{r^3}[3(\vec p\cdot \hat r)\hat r-\vec p].

Homework Equations


Starting from
E_{dip}(r)=\frac{p}{4\pi\epsilon_0r^3}(2\cos \hat r+\sin\theta \hat \theta)

The Attempt at a Solution


The equation immediately above assumes a spherical coordinate system such that p is oriented along z. We can therefore write
\vec p=p\hat z
\hat z = \cos\theta \hat r - \sin\theta \hat \theta \implies \vec p=p\cos\theta\hat r-p\sin\theta\hat\theta
From equation 3.102 in the book we know that \hat r\cdot \vec p=p\cos\theta

Try as I might I don't know how to show, geometrically or via manipulation, that p\sin\theta\hat \theta=(\vec p \cdot \hat \theta)\hat \theta. From there it's easy to get to the desired result.
 
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I find this problem is easier to see in reverse than forwards (that is, working from the solution to get the starting point)

<br /> 3(\mathbf{p}\cdot\hat{\mathbf{r}})\hat{\mathbf{r}}-\mathbf{p}=3p\cos\theta\hat{\mathbf{r}}-p\cos\theta\hat{\mathbf{r}}+p\sin\theta\hat{\boldsymbol{\theta}}=2p\cos\theta\hat{\mathbf{r}}+p\sin\theta\hat{\boldsymbol{\theta}}<br />

which looks a lot like what you have in your relevant equations :wink:
 
jdwood983 said:
I find this problem is easier to see in reverse than forwards (that is, working from the solution to get the starting point)

<br /> 3(\mathbf{p}\cdot\hat{\mathbf{r}})\hat{\mathbf{r}}-\mathbf{p}=3p\cos\theta\hat{\mathbf{r}}-p\cos\theta\hat{\mathbf{r}}+p\sin\theta\hat{\boldsymbol{\theta}}=2p\cos\theta\hat{\mathbf{r}}+p\sin\theta\hat{\boldsymbol{\theta}}<br />

which looks a lot like what you have in your relevant equations :wink:

Well I guess that solves the problem. Seems a little anticlimactic. My professor recommended we draw a picture and show how things cancel out by dotting vectors together.
 
I was able to do it by using pictures...backwards. Here's how to derive the given equation from the desired equation.

Let theta be the polar angle and p point toward theta=0.

First draw the p vector and the r hat vector intersecting at some angle theta. Project p onto the r axis.
\overrightarrow{p}\cdot \widehat{r}=pcos(\Theta )

Then draw the p vector (parallel to the original p vector) at some point at vector r from the origin (where the dipole is actually located). Resolve the p vector onto the (r, theta) coordinates.
<br /> \widehat{p}=cos(\Theta )\widehat{r}+sin(\Theta )\left ( -\widehat{\Theta } \right )<br />
Plugging those into the problem statement equation and doing some algebra gives you the equation you were supposed to start with. I'm sure you could just work through it backwards.
 
Last edited:
naele said:
Well I guess that solves the problem. Seems a little anticlimactic. My professor recommended we draw a picture and show how things cancel out by dotting vectors together.

It is a little anticlimactic doing it backwards. I spent about 30 minutes trying to do the geometry forwards before I decided to do it backwards. When I saw the answer, my first thought was "That was it?"

As Jolb said, you can do it graphically if you draw the appropriate vectors, but I personally think it's easier to do it mathematically.
 

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