How Can I Predict When Venus Will Be Visible as an Evening or Morning Star?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on predicting the visibility of Venus as either an evening or morning star, exploring the synodic period of Venus and its implications for observation. Participants seek to understand the timing and conditions under which Venus can be seen without the aid of technology, delving into the mechanics of planetary motion and visibility.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that Venus has a synodic period of 583.92 days and questions whether this means it spends approximately half that time as an evening star and half as a morning star, with some transition period.
  • Another participant references a source indicating that Venus transitions between evening and morning star states over about 8 days, spending roughly 263 days in each state.
  • Some participants discuss methods to identify Venus in the sky, suggesting observing its position relative to other planets like Jupiter, which changes position more noticeably due to its orbital dynamics.
  • A participant expresses confusion about why Jupiter appears to change position more than Venus, speculating that it relates to their respective orbits and velocities, and later receives confirmation of this reasoning.
  • One participant shares the formula for calculating the synodic period of planets and provides a link to an interactive solar system visualization tool.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the synodic period of Venus and its implications for visibility, but there are varying interpretations of how to apply this knowledge practically. The discussion includes multiple viewpoints on the visibility of Venus and the mechanics of planetary motion, indicating that some aspects remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the exact timing of Venus's visibility and the conditions affecting its appearance in the sky. There are references to the need for observational experience and knowledge of other celestial bodies to aid in identifying Venus.

Who May Find This Useful

Astronomy enthusiasts, amateur stargazers, and individuals interested in planetary motion and visibility may find this discussion relevant.

Cantstandit
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Venus' synodic period is 583.92 days. Does that mean that Venus is 583.92/2 days the evening star and 583.92/2 days the morning star (with some period in between when it's probably to close to the sun to be visible)? What I want to know is some kind of formula so that I know where and when to look for Venus. Say in August I will know that in January Venus was an evening star, actually being quite far away from Sun (I don't know the terminology, just starting to look up) - It's close to moon crescent now. So I know it's been around 180 days between January and August - less than 583.92/2, so I should still look for it near setting sun.
But now that I looked it up in Stellarium I know that it's going to be morning star in July already, so I'm at loss.
What I'm trying to learn is a way to recognize those shiny dots without use of computer or phone app (which is great! BUT I feel like a lazy cheater)
 
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See: http://www.johnpratt.com/items/astronomy/eve_morn.html

It's described here that it takes 8 days for Venus to transition from the evening to the morning star, spending about 263 days as each.

Unfortunately, there's no way of knowing what's what to the casual observer who steps out at sunset and sees a bright point of light setting in the West on a given night. Soon, Jupiter will be low in the West, and it is also quite bright (though less so than Venus, so that's one hint.) The best way to tell would be to observe the position of the bright object for a couple days in a row. Jupiter's position, at the same time each night, will noticeably change while the change in Venus's position will be much less evident. So, when you see a bright object setting in the West at sunset, for a few days in a row with no perceptible change of position, there's a good bet it's Venus.

EDIT: The other way, is to simply learn which other planets are visible. As I said, right now (in the Northern Hemisphere), Jupiter is visible (probably at an altitude of around 70 degrees or so at sunset). Mars is rising (in the East) later in the evening, well after Venus has set in the West. So, by getting a sense of which planets are visible at a given time, and knowing where they are, you can be certain of what's what. No computer or phone app necessary.
 
Thanks! So it IS ~583.92/2 evening/morning star (with 8 and 50 days of transition), but I missed that Venus being now far away from the Sun and thus it has already traveled 583.92/4 of it's "evening star time"... had I noticed that I could probably calculate some rough estimation whether Venus is evening or morning star in August.

One more question: Why does Jupiter change it's position more than Venus? It's further away, and its period is longer and its velocity is lower... (but it's synodic period is lower)
[EDIT] I think I know why: Venus orbit is "inside" of Earth's orbit, and it taks only a fragment of the sky, while Jupiter is outside, and its orbit spans across the whole sky. This way it has higher "velocity" on the night sky. Is that right?

Is there some web page with interactive solar system, so that I can visualize it better?
 
Last edited:
Cantstandit said:
One more question: Why does Jupiter change it's position more than Venus? It's further away, and its period is longer and its velocity is lower... (but it's synodic period is lower)
[EDIT] I think I know why: Venus orbit is "inside" of Earth's orbit, and it taks only a fragment of the sky, while Jupiter is outside, and its orbit spans across the whole sky. This way it has higher "velocity" on the night sky. Is that right?
Yes, that's basically it. Jupiter's speed relative to the sun is not important; its speed relative to Earth is. The orbital speed of the Earth relative to Jupiter is several times that of Earth's orbital speed relative to Venus. Hence, in a given period of time, Jupiter's position in the night sky will change more than Venus's.
Is there some web page with interactive solar system, so that I can visualize it better?
I don't know, but that sure would be cool! Let me know if you find one!
 
The synodic period is the time required for a planet to return to the same position in the sky relative to the sun. In other words, Venus 'laps' the Earth once every ~ 584 days. The formula for synodic period of a planet inside Earth orbit is 1/P = 1/E + 1/S where P is the orbital period of the planet, E is the orbital period of earth, and S is the synodic period. For a planet outside Earth orbit [e.g., Jupiter] the formula is 1/P = 1/E - 1/S. The orbit period of Venus is about 225 days compared to 365 days for earth. Here is an interactive http://www.solarsystemscope.com/
 

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