How do we know we can just add vectors in Plane-Wind problems?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the addition of vectors in plane-wind problems, specifically addressing the assumptions and implications of vector addition when considering the velocities of a plane and wind. Participants explore the conceptual understanding of how these vectors interact in a medium, with examples related to both aviation and boating.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the validity of simply adding vectors in plane-wind problems, suggesting that the mass and forces involved may not be adequately considered.
  • Another participant explains that the airplane's velocity must be combined with the wind's velocity, assuming the wind acts as a constant force in the medium.
  • Concerns are raised about the interpretation of wind speed and its effect on the motion of heavier objects like planes or boats, with one participant expressing confusion about the wind's role compared to the mass of the boat or plane.
  • A participant reflects on the difficulty of conceptualizing wind as a continuous medium rather than a discrete object, suggesting that this affects their understanding of the problem.
  • One participant emphasizes the importance of understanding how wind affects landing approaches, indicating that practical experiences can inform theoretical discussions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the assumptions underlying the addition of vectors in these problems. There is no consensus on how to interpret the effects of wind relative to the mass of the aircraft or boat, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these assumptions.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the assumptions made about the wind's influence, the time it takes for an object to reach a certain velocity in a medium, and the interpretation of wind speed in relation to mass. These factors contribute to the complexity of the discussion.

lamp23
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In plane-wind problems where you are given the velocity of the boat and the velocity of the wind, my textbook gave the solution as just adding the vectors. How do we know we can just add the vectors? Even though the wind might be blowing faster than my boat, won't my boat still make progress even if it's heading straight into the wind? What is being assumed in these problems about the masses or the forces that I'm missing?

Here is an example problem:
The problem: A plane leaves the airport on a bearing of 45 degrees traveling at 400mph. The Wind is blowing at a bearing of 135 degrees at a speed of 40mph. What is the actual velocity of the plane?
 
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The basic idea is that you're traveling in the medium. Imagine the airplane doesn't have it's engines running. Of course, you'll need to pretend it's not going to just plummet to the ground. Assuming it doesn't fall, the airplane, in a medium (air) of 40mph at 135 degrees will eventually be sped up by the wind to 40mph at that bearing (and actually I always assumed wind "bearing at 135 degrees" meant the wind was blowing in the SE direction but whatever). So when you turn on the engines and point your airplane at 45 degrees and pick up your speed to 400mph, you must add the velocity contribution from the airplane itself plus the fact that you're in a medium which is moving the airplane.

The assumptions to the problem are that the airplane is immediately and constantly being given a 40mph/135 degree velocity due to the wind. Now, in reality, even if you assume the wind is constant everywhere, the airplane would take some time to reach that 40mph/135 degree velocity simply from it's own inertia fighting the wind trying to push it. However, this time is very short and can be neglected.

If the airplane is a little big unrealistic, think of a boat in a river. Put the boat at rest and allow the river to act on it. The boat will reach the river's speed VERY quickly. Same idea with an airplane, it just takes a bit longer.
 
I wish they would state what they meant by the wind having such a speed. Otherwise I just think of a boat that is only traveling a few mph against a wind with a greater speed yet the boat still making progress, because I think of the wind not being nearly as massive as the boat and not creating a large enough force to move it.
 
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lamp23 said:
I wish they would state what they meant by the wind having such a speed. Otherwise I just think of a boat that is only traveling a few mph against a wind with a greater speed yet the boat still making progress.

They do say that it has a 40mph velocity and give it's direction.
 
Hmm, I guess my main problem is I'm thinking of wind as a very lightweight object and comparing it to the plane or the boat as a much heavier object, but I guess I'm not supposed to be thinking of the wind as an object since there is a steady stream of it.
It's easier for me to think about the river obeying these laws because I'm not confusing it with something I could draw a force diagram for.
Thanks a lot for your help though, I definitely started thinking about it differently once you said to think of what would happen if the plane could just float in the air.
 
Don't underestimate wind:



Notice the landing, he has to point into the wind substantially to continue going straight.
 
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