How Does DDWFTTW Work and What Are Its Key Principles?

[kmarinas86]

Yes. The intersection point of the blade surface with the path of the particle is moving slower than the particle.

Settled!

 

[jduffy77]

Settled!

Hey do you think that would work for Humber? Just kidding.

Seriously, what do you think about the sail to prop animation now marinas. I think you probably see it differently, I am just asking because I always thought it was a great visualization of what you just discovered.

 

[kmarinas86]

Hey do you think that would work for Humber? Just kidding.

Seriously, what do you think about the sail to prop animation now marinas. I think you probably see it differently, I am just asking because I always thought it was a great visualization of what you just discovered.

It's all good to me now.

Some of the other models I was talking about (I think) do exist, except that now I think the mechanisms I described in those models have no meaningful degree of presence for this particular problem. I think they might exist in some very extreme situations - just not at these slow speeds and accelerations.

 

[mender]

It's all good to me now.

Cool, huh?

A.T.'s animations are great!

 

[ThinAirDesign]

Yes.

 

[kmarinas86]

This animation shows how the "ball" (air particle) hits the back of the propeller blade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqJOVHHf6mQ

The intersection point of the blade surface with the path of the particle is moving slower than the particle. Even if the cart is moving faster than the particle.

Now I'm no longer disputing the calculation of input and output energy. I'm also not disputing the forces and their orientation in the video. I think the video sufficiently shows that... but:

Concerning frame of reference of the intersection point (seen as the corner made by the blue line in the video), the air does not change speed, just the direction.

In other words, something possessed by the particles of the air, the momentum per air mass, the norm of which gives us the air speed (scalar), does not appear to change here. How then does this cause the kinetic energy of the combined mass of the cart and the ground to increase relative to the intersection point? Maybe it does not!

At 0:52 and 0:53 we see the vectors "force on air" and "force on airfoil", which are both diagonal. The air bounces off the surface of the airfoil at the intersection point. I imagine that the combined mass of the cart and the ground reacts to this air in an equal but opposite manner, as shown by the blue and maroon arrows that I added to the diagram, which are oriented CCW and CW respectively.

So it does not even seem to me that the kinetic energy of the wind even needs to be extracted by the cart in order for this to work. All there needs to be is a deflection of existing energy. After all, if we discount the hypothesis that potential energy is somehow relevant in this system, while at the same time we assume the conservation of energy, then it would stand to reason that "kinetic energy+heat" is conserved both before and after the force interactions. If the air does not lose kinetic energy in the reference frame of the intersection, then neither could the rest of system gain it.

Finally, I would also like to point out that at from 1:07 to 1:22 in the video, the amount that the energy in and the amount of energy out is calculated to be different, even though the friction was not modeled! Clearly the video is not taking into to account the work done tangentially. It turns out that the video as a whole takes into account the work done along the path of the wind and the cart (horizontally that is), but not the tangential work. For example, consider how much faster the prop cuts up through the air than the air itself does. If they took into account the work done by the propeller onto the air tangentially to the wind, it turns out that net work that the wind does on the rest of the system, and vice versa, combining both horizontal and tangential components, is zero from the frame of reference of the intersection between the air and the propeller.

 

[jduffy77]

Now I'm no longer disputing the calculation of input and output energy. I'm also not disputing the forces and their orientation in the video. I think the video sufficiently shows that... but:

Concerning frame of reference of the intersection point (seen as the corner made by the blue line in the video), the air does not change speed, just the direction.

In other words, something possessed by the particles of the air, the momentum per air mass, the norm of which gives us the air speed (scalar), does not appear to change here. How then does this cause the kinetic energy of the combined mass of the cart and the ground to increase relative to the intersection point? Maybe it does not!

But it does change. I would suggest you research propeller thrust in order to understand what is happening.

At 0:52 and 0:53 we see the vectors "force on air" and "force on airfoil", which are both diagonal. The air bounces off the surface of the airfoil at the intersection point. I imagine that the combined mass of the cart and the ground reacts to this air in an equal but opposite manner, as shown by the blue and maroon arrows that I added to the diagram, which are oriented CCW and CW respectively.

So it does not even seem to me that the kinetic energy of the wind even needs to be extracted by the cart in order for this to work. All there needs to be is a deflection of existing energy.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this? It does not make sense to me.

After all, if we discount the hypothesis that potential energy is somehow relevant in this system, while at the same time we assume the conservation of energy, then it would stand to reason that "kinetic energy+heat" is conserved both before and after the force interactions.

This does not "stand to reason" for me in the sense that it constitutes an argument for the cart using the "deflection of existing energy".

If the air does not lose kinetic energy in the reference frame of the intersection, then neither could the rest of system gain it.

But it does lose energy.

 

[kmarinas86]

But it does change. I would suggest you research propeller thrust in order to understand what is happening.

The change of speed does depend on the frame of reference. In one reference frame the velocity of a particle can flip 90 degrees, 180 degrees, or whatever degrees without changing speed. An example of this is light bouncing off a mirror. The velocity flips across an axis normal to a mirror's surface. The speed of light did not change.

In any other frame than that in which the lines of the air flow in the video were traces, the speed will undoubtedly change. This includes the ground frame, the cart frame, and the wind frame.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this? It does not make sense to me.

This does not "stand to reason" for me in the sense that it constitutes an argument for the cart using the "deflection of existing energy".

I don't know how this could be clearer. Do I need to show how two balls can bounce off each other from an angle without either gaining more kinetic energy from the other than the other is gaining from it?

But it does lose energy.

That depends on the frame of reference!

I'm just saying that there is a way to look at it (a particular frame of reference) where it does not involve the transfer of net energy.

 

[jduffy77]

The change of speed does depend on the frame of reference. In one reference frame the velocity of a particle can flip 90 degrees, 180 degrees, or whatever degrees without changing speed. An example of this is light bouncing off a mirror. The velocity flips across an axis normal to a mirror's surface. The speed of light did not change.

In any other frame than that in which the lines of the air flow in the video were traces, the speed will undoubtedly change. This includes the ground frame, the cart frame, and the wind frame.

You are confusing yourself again. None of this has any relevance to the cart. In the ground frame the prop is slowing down the air. It does not need energy to do this. The air is doing the work.

I don't know how this could be clearer. Do I need to show how two balls can bounce off each other from an angle without either gaining more kinetic energy from the other than the other is gaining from it?

A. No. B. This is nothing to do with the cart.

That depends on the frame of reference!

I'm just saying that there is a way to look at it (a particular frame of reference) where it does not involve the transfer of net energy.

The air loses kinetic energy with respect to the ground. If by net energy you mean that COE is not violated you are correct but I don't expect that's what you are getting at.

 

[kmarinas86]

You are confusing yourself again. None of this has any relevance to the cart. In the ground frame the prop is slowing down the air. It does not need energy to do this. The air is doing the work.

The air is doing the work with respect to the ground frame and other frames. Not in all inertial frames. That is relativity, you know, the theory invented by Albert Einstein?

A. No. B. This is nothing to do with the cart.

It has something to do with the statement I was responding to:

This does not "stand to reason" for me in the sense that it constitutes an argument for the cart using the "deflection of existing energy".

Saying this means you deny that the cart involves the deflection of existing energy. That's like saying that no matter can be changing direction in this system. That has everything to do with blue and maroon arrows in the diagram below:

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42518&stc=1&d=1325884076

Edit: You added:

The air loses kinetic energy with respect to the ground. If by net energy you mean that COE is not violated you are correct but I don't expect that's what you are getting at.

By net energy, I mean there is a reference frame in which the net transfer of energy across the intersection between the depicted air stream and the propeller is zero.

 

[jduffy77]

The air is doing the work with respect to the ground frame and other frames. Not in all inertial frames. That is relativity, you know, the theory invented by Albert Einstein?

I do indeed. You seem to be having some problems with it at the moment though. You have made a correct statement here which should lead to an enhanced understanding of the cart mechanism, but instead it is leading you to incorrect conclusions.

It has something to do with the statement I was responding to:

Saying this means you deny that the cart involves the deflection of existing energy. That's like saying that no matter can be changing direction in this system. That has everything to do with blue and maroon arrows in the diagram below:

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42518&stc=1&d=1325884076

Your diagram is incorrect. That is what I am trying to help you with. I think talking "deflection of existing energy" in the context of the cart is nonsensical.

 

[ThinAirDesign]

The air is doing the work with respect to the ground frame and other frames. Not in all inertial frames. That is relativity, you know, the theory invented by Albert Einstein?



It has something to do with the statement I was responding to:



Saying this means you deny that the cart involves the deflection of existing energy. That's like saying that no matter can be changing direction in this system. That has everything to do with blue and maroon arrows in the diagram below:

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42518&stc=1&d=1325884076

Edit: You added:



By net energy, I mean there is a reference frame in which the net transfer of energy across the intersection between the depicted air stream and the propeller is zero.

-No.

 

[jduffy77]

Edit: You added:

By net energy, I mean there is a reference frame in which the net transfer of energy across the intersection between the depicted air stream and the propeller is zero.

I wish you would explain how you can think this.

 

[kmarinas86]

I do indeed. You seem to be having some problems with it at the moment though. You have made a correct statement here which should lead to an enhanced understanding of the cart mechanism, but instead it is leading you to incorrect conclusions.
Your diagram is incorrect. That is what I am trying to help you with. I think talking "deflection of existing energy" in the context of the cart is nonsensical.

Doesn't the angle of deflection of existing energy matter?

The best way to avoid confusion is to be precise:

- Make clear which reference frame you are analyzing (power/kinetic energy are frame dependent quantities)
- Distinguish between "air" with "wind" (movement of air relative to something)
- Distinguish between true wind (relative to ground) with relative wind (relative to cart)
- Distinguish between work done by the cart chassis on the air, with work done by the propeller on the air.

Being precise in formulating the questions, often makes the answer obvious.That is not necessarily true. Depending on the propeller pitch the acceleration can be not maximal at WS but rather above it. So the increase in KE (seen from the ground frame) is maximal there. But the power transmitted though the vehicle always increases with speed. Here I posted some simulated values:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3352297From the ground frame: Some of the air is doing negative work on the cart chassis. But there is more positive work done on the propeller blades by the air.

The propeller always slows down air relative to the ground. The faster you go, the more volume of air you encounter, that you can draw KE from. But that increase is linear, while chassis drag and transmission inefficiency increase non linearly with speed.Have a look at the table below that shows different settings for a variable blade pitch propeller, coupled to the ground via wheels. What you describe above is starting out in CASE A (that gives you maximal initial acceleration) and then at some point below 1WS switching to CASE C that allows you to go faster than wind.

Note that the Blackbird didn't have that ability (even when it had variable pitch later). They didn't want the ability to turn the wheels with the prop, to avoid confusion about using stored energy. They used CASE C only.

But Andrew Bauer was using his propeller as a turbine below windspeed. Here is video where you can see him starting in "windmill mode" and change the blade pitch later.
http://www.fasterthanthewind.org/2010/09/sad-news-in-world-of-ddwfttw.html
See also the graphs on page 15 in Bauer's paper.
http://projects.m-qp-m.us/donkeypus...aster-Than-The-Wind-The-Ancient-Interface.pdf

"Make clear which reference frame you are analyzing (power/kinetic energy are frame dependent quantities)"

I probably wasn't clear enough as my analyses were often switching from one reference frame to the next. Most people on this forum can only think about one reference frame at a time. It's easy for me to switch them, but I guess that hard it's to notice the reference frame switching from my dense way of writing.

BTW: I am from the point of view that potential energy is itself a frame-dependent quantity that balances exactly the changes in kinetic energy (dKE/dPE = -1), such that things like inertia and their effect on gravity are frame-invariant. But that is a totally different subject anyway.

 

[jduffy77]

Saying this means you deny that the cart involves the deflection of existing energy. That's like saying that no matter can be changing direction in this system.

Does burning a piece of wood or hitting a baseball involve "deflection of existing energy"? If that is the sense you mean it in then ok. It seems a strange way of putting things.

 

[jduffy77]

Doesn't the angle of deflection of existing energy matter?

The energy for the ddwfttw cart comes from slowing down the wind with respect to the ground. Is that the "deflection of existing energy" that you are talking about?

 

[kmarinas86]

The energy for the ddwfttw cart comes from slowing down the wind with respect to the ground. Is that the "deflection of existing energy" that you are talking about?

By deflection I mean an angular change of the direction with respect to some surface. If by deflection I meant the actual thing deflected, then I should really call this "deflected matter". So what you are taking about is "deflected matter" as seen from the ground point of view.

 

[jduffy77]

By deflection I mean an angular change of the direction with respect to some surface. If by deflection I meant the actual thing deflected, then I should really call this "deflected matter". So what you are taking about is "deflected matter" as seen from the ground point of view.

Air is certainly being deflected by the prop. It is being shoved out the back which gives an equal and opposite reaction. That's pretty much the definition of thrust.

This does not help your first post today make any sense however:

So it does not even seem to me that the kinetic energy of the wind even needs to be extracted by the cart in order for this to work. All there needs to be is a deflection of existing energy. After all, if we discount the hypothesis that potential energy is somehow relevant in this system, while at the same time we assume the conservation of energy, then it would stand to reason that "kinetic energy+heat" is conserved both before and after the force interactions. If the air does not lose kinetic energy in the reference frame of the intersection, then neither could the rest of system gain it.

Finally, I would also like to point out that at from 1:07 to 1:22 in the video, the amount that the energy in and the amount of energy out is calculated to be different, even though the friction was not modeled! Clearly the video is not taking into to account the work done tangentially. It turns out that the video as a whole takes into account the work done along the path of the wind and the cart (horizontally that is), but not the tangential work. For example, consider how much faster the prop moves cuts up through the air than the air itself does. If they took into account the work done by the propeller onto the air tangentially to the wind, it turns out that net work that the wind does on the rest of the system, and vice versa, combining both horizontal and tangential components, is zero from the frame of reference of the intersection between the air propeller.

 

[A.T.]

How then does this cause the kinetic energy of the combined mass of the cart and the ground to increase relative to the intersection point?

In the frame where the air's KE doesn't change, the carts KE increases while the grounds KE decreases.

The air bounces off the surface of the airfoil at the intersection point.

Keep in mind that this is strongly simplified picture. The real airflow is quite different, but the result in terms of force on the blade is the same.

If the air does not lose kinetic energy in the reference frame of the intersection, then neither could the rest of system gain it.

See first comment.

Clearly the video is not taking into to account the work done tangentially.

Work is done only along the direction of movement, at the rate P = F dot v (the dot product cancels the tangential force component). It is an idealized model that assumes just a short interaction with the blade. The inefficiencies of a real world propeller (like swirling the air tangentially) constitute the losses.

 

[kmarinas86]

If the frame where the air's KE doesn't change, the carts KE increases while the grounds KE decreases.

Keep in mind that this is strongly simplified picture. The real airflow is quite different, but the result in terms of force on the blade is the same.

See first comment.

Work is done only along the direction of movement, at the rate P = F dot v (the dot product cancels the tangential force component). It is an idealized model that assumes just a short interaction with the blade. The inefficiencies of a real world propeller (like swirling the air tangentially) constitute the losses.

Thank you for spending the time to answer.

 

[kerosene]

I did the animation of spiral track sail to prop.

2 things I think will help people to understand what's going on.

1. Sail carts can frequently "beat a balloon" downwind with a significant factor. Downwind velocity component being 2-2.5 x wind speed. This is well documented and can be studied in many places. People follow their intuition and think that the dw component (for some reason) cannot exceed wind speed. If you argue against this fact then read about it 1st.

2. The wind cart works by using "gearing" and the relative speed differences of the two different interfaces. You can can turn a resisting force to a larger pushing force as long as the speed differences support this.

The breaking power at wheels (ground to wheel) could be for example 10N at 10m/s =100w. Same 100w at 5 m/s apparent wind speed can generate 20N thrust.

Obviously there are efficiencies at play in real application but by using above thinking you can throw different numbers to check what is going on at different wind and cart speeds. You will see that there is plenty of "excess" to be wasted - and thus the cart does work.

 

[kmarinas86]

People follow their intuition and think that the dw component (for some reason) cannot exceed wind speed.

The one and only thing that first got me to accept that this is possible was to think of the effective velocity between the air mass and the blade. The difference between the wind velocity vector and the effective velocity vector can have a sign opposite of that between the wind velocity vector and the craft velocity vector. Because of this reason, both DDWFTTW and DUWFTTW are possible.

Evidence is now easy to come by: youtube.com/results?search_query=Dynamic+Soaring

Thinking about tacking wasn't helping that much. As evident on this thread, I and many others wasted a lot of time on that issue. I suggest that next time someone doubts that this is possible, one can skip the whole discussion about tacking and go directly towards talking about the effective velocity between the air mass and the rotating, pitched blade in the sense of vectors (velocities), not scalars (speeds). It's the only thing that should really matter here.

 

[spork]

Thinking about tacking wasn't helping that much. As evident on this thread, I and many others wasted a lot of time on that issue. I suggest that next time someone doubts that this is possible, one can skip the whole discussion about tacking and go directly towards talking about the effective velocity between the air mass and the rotating, pitched blade in the sense of vectors (velocities), not scalars (speeds). It's the only thing that should really matter here.

We have found that there is no single explanation that works for everyone. Whenever someone finally "gets it" they usually ask why we wasted their time with all the other useless or even wrong explanations. But the fact is, we have a whole bunch of different explanations. They're all accurate, and each person seems to respond to a different one - and think the rest are nonsense.

 

[kmarinas86]

We have found that there is no single explanation that works for everyone. Whenever someone finally "gets it" they usually ask why we wasted their time with all the other useless or even wrong explanations. But the fact is, we have a whole bunch of different explanations. They're all accurate, and each person seems to respond to a different one - and think the rest are nonsense.

Ohhhh welll...

 

[kmarinas86]

Saying this means you deny that the cart involves the deflection of existing energy. That's like saying that no matter can be changing direction in this system. That has everything to do with blue and maroon arrows in the diagram below:

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42518&stc=1&d=1325884076

physics.aps.org/assets/1e41c2ebe02d4468

Focus: Getting an Extra Bounce
Published October 4, 2004 | Phys. Rev. Focus 14, 14 (2004) | DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevFocus.14.14

Computer simulations and experiments show that a ball can rebound from a surface with more vertical speed than it had initially.
Anomalous Behavior of the Coefficient of Normal Restitution in Oblique Impact

Hiroto Kuninaka and Hisao Hayakawa
Phys. Rev. Lett. 93, 154301 (2004)
Published October 5, 2004

Figure 1
NASA-JPL

http://physics.aps.org/assets/1e41c2ebe02d4468

Quick sand. Computer simulations agree with experiments suggesting that a disk can hit a surface and rebound with a surprisingly vertical trajectory. Research on such impacts can help improve models of the flow of granular materials–such as these Martian sand dunes (shown in false color).

Figure 2
M. Louge/Cornell Univ.

http://physics.aps.org/assets/389adf7d129904e2

Pop-up. In previous experiments [2] the trajectory of a ceramic ball hitting an elastic surface made a larger angle with the surface after impact than before. (See computer simulation video below.)
Animation courtesy of H. Kuninaka, Kyoto University.

http://physics.aps.org/assets/0d26d47f89100be8/video-v1.ogg

High ball. This two-dimensional simulation shows how a ball can deform an elastic surface when it bounces. The surface becomes in effect a ski jump, which redirects the ball’s velocity skyward.

Like a gymnast who runs toward a vaulting horse and then hurls herself skyward, a ball can, under certain conditions, rebound from a glancing impact with a surprisingly vertical trajectory. It’s a phenomenon that’s been observed but never fully explained–and at times even doubted. But now researchers report in the 8 October PRL that they have developed a theory that explains the phenomenon and have tested it with computer simulations. Their explanation–which hinges on the ball’s impact deforming the surface it hits–could help refine models of the flow of granular materials such as sand dunes, cement, and soil.

The coefficient of normal restitution compares the vertical component of the velocity of an object before and after it has bounced. Conventional wisdom says it’s less than one–that is, a ball can’t leave the ground moving faster than when it arrived, because that would require extra energy (in the case of the gymnast, her body creates energy). But since the early 1990s several research groups have reported experiments with oblique impacts in which they found what seemed to be absurd results: A hockey-puck-like disk glanced against a wall and then appeared to pop away with an increased perpendicular velocity [1] and a ceramic sphere rebounded off a softer surface with a noticeably more vertical trajectory [2].

“They first thought I was crazy!” says Michel Louge of Cornell University, who performed the sphere-bouncing experiment with student Michael Adams. But after carefully ruling out experimental error, he concluded that the ball must deform the surface in such a way that it changes the trajectory of the ball. In that way, he thought, some of the horizontal component of the velocity could be transferred to the vertical component[/color]. He wasn’t sure exactly how this would happen, although it was clear that the effect was limited to special situations. “My conjecture in the [experimental] paper was just that–a conjecture,” he says.

Now Hiroto Kuninaka and Hisao Hayakawa of Kyoto University in Japan report that they have simulated the small-scale interactions between a disk and an elastic surface that can lead to a greater-than-one coefficient of normal restitution. Their computer simulation calculates a coefficient of 1.3 when the disk strikes the surface at an angle of about 11 degrees; at that angle, their simulated ball rebounds at about 15 degrees. The simulation results resemble Louge’s experimental data, according to the authors.

The simulation allowed the team to see the virtual disk denting the surface when it hit at oblique angles. Bill Stronge of Cambridge University in England describes the indentation as a kind of ski jump, which redirects the sphere’s velocity skyward. Because of this phenomenon, the coefficient of normal restitution can be greater than one without breaking the laws of physics. “The point is that the target material is softer than the ball,” says Kuninaka.

But Stronge doubts that the impact could make as vertical a ski jump as the researchers’ model suggests. It may have some effect, he says, “but I think that it’s certainly not nearly as dramatic as they have portrayed.” Computer models of granular materials such as cement and soil must account accurately for the collisions between grains, which can be treated like collisions with walls. So the work could contribute to practical advances in industries that manage and transport these materials, says Louge–and add to the understanding of the physics of ball sports.

–Chelsea Wald

References

J. Calsamiglia, S. W. Kennedy, A. Chatterjee, A. Ruina, and J. T. Jenkins, “Anomalous Frictional Behavior in Collisions of Thin Disks,” J. Appl. Mech.66, 146 (1999).
Michel Y. Louge and Michael E. Adams, “Anomalous behavior of normal kinematic restitution in the oblique impacts of a hard sphere on an elastoplastic plate,” Phys. Rev. E 65, 021303 (2002).

From this, we can see that "DDWFTTW" phenomenon isn't limited to sails or propellers:

Anomalous behavior of normal kinematic restitution in the oblique impacts of a hard sphere on an elastoplastic plate
http://masters.donntu.edu.ua/2010/fimm/kutnyashenko/library/nem_1/nem_1.pdf

 

[spork]

From this, we can see that "DDWFTTW" phenomenon isn't limited to sails or propellers

The very fact that these are "anomalous" tells us that they're not all that similar to DDWFTTW. DDWFTTW may be counter-intuitive, but it's very easily explained with very traditional physics.

 

[kmarinas86]

The very fact that these are "anomalous" tells us that they're not all that similar to DDWFTTW.

I'm not sure that follows.

Bill Stronge of Cambridge University in England describes the indentation as a kind of ski jump, which redirects the sphere’s velocity skyward.

The rotation and pitch of a propeller could create an interface between incoming wind that, due to changes in the propeller's position and the change of wind's angle of attack with the propeller's surface over time, the propeller may appear to the wind as if it were a "ski jump". That might be going beyond the minimum to explain DDWFTTW, but it also would explain why a different propeller design might be better at DDWFTTW than another.

 

[jduffy77]

From this, we can see that "DDWFTTW" phenomenon isn't limited to sails or propellers:

Anomalous behavior of normal kinematic restitution in the oblique impacts of a hard sphere on an elastoplastic plate

This article has absolutely nothing to do with ddwfttw whatsoever. Your apparent desire to over complicate the simple lever which is the ddwfttw cart is fascinating to me. I believe your confusion stems from the fact that you still wish to see the cart as being pushed along by the wind. You need to think about the cart's prop exactly as you would the prop in a powered airplane. In this case the cart is powered by the wheels but it is generating thrust in exactly the same manner as the airplane.

 

[kmarinas86]

From this, we can see that "DDWFTTW" phenomenon isn't limited to sails or propellers:

Anomalous behavior of normal kinematic restitution in the oblique impacts of a hard sphere on an elastoplastic plate
http://masters.donntu.edu.ua/2010/fimm/kutnyashenko/library/nem_1/nem_1.pdf

This article has absolutely nothing to do with ddwfttw whatsoever. Your apparent desire to over complicate the simple lever which is the ddwfttw cart is fascinating to me. I believe your confusion stems from the fact that you still wish to see the cart as being pushed along by the wind. You need to think about the cart's prop exactly as you would the prop in a powered airplane. In this case the cart is powered by the wheels but it is generating thrust in exactly the same manner as the airplane.

"Powered by the wheels" makes no sense. They're not the source of energy.
The relative motion of the wind with respect to the ground is also not necessary, otherwise, dynamic soaring would not work. Dynamic soaring could also work in the upper atmosphere bordering the vacuum of space, by dipping in and out of it, but you can't give a vacuum a "velocity" with respect to the ground. So you don't even need to reduce the relative velocity of two masses to accelerate a third with respect to the first and the second.

Replace the "hard sphere" with the propeller and the "elastoplastic plate" with the wind (the wind deforms faster than the propeller). That seems analogous to me.

And do you think that DD"W"FTT"W" can only happen with sails and propellers? I think just about any two interfaces will do. One of them doesn't have to be "wind". That's my point. I'm saying that DD"W"FTT"W" could done with anything, even with two "solids" if the angles are just right. DD"W"FTT"W" could also happen inside a fluid, where particles in the fluid can be likened to "ships" or "wind".

 

[jduffy77]

"Powered by the wheels" makes no sense. They're not the source of energy.

No, in fact the only thing that does make sense to say about the props power source is that it is the wheels. The ground is in fact the source of energy if you choose to analyze the cart in a frame other than that of the ground.

The relative motion of the wind with respect to the ground is also not necessary, otherwise, dynamic soaring would not work.

This is completely wrong. The relative motion of the wind with respect to the ground is central to the carts functioning and the cart has nothing to do with dynamic soaring.

And do you think that DD"W"FTT"W" can only happen with sails and propellers? I think just about any two interfaces will do. One of them doesn't have to be "wind". That's my point. I'm saying that DD"W"FTT"W" could done with anything, even with two "solids" if the angles are just right. DD"W"FTT"W" could also happen inside a fluid, where particles in the fluid can be likened to "ships" or "wind".

This is correct but completely contradicting what you said earlier about relative motion.
As long as you have two surfaces which are in motion with respect to each other, you could design a vehicle which used leverage to travel faster than its power source.

 

[jduffy77]

Kmarinas Have you checked out coolaun's excellent videos?

http://www.youtube.com/user/coolaun/videos

He shows various d"w"ftt"w" examples.

 

[kmarinas86]

"Powered by the wheels" makes no sense. They're not the source of energy.

No, in fact the only thing that does make sense to say about the props power source is that it is the wheels. The ground is in fact the source of energy if you choose to analyze the cart in a frame other than that of the ground.

I said:

Dynamic soaring could also work in the upper atmosphere bordering the vacuum of space, by dipping in and out of it, but you can't give a vacuum a "velocity" with respect to the ground. So you don't even need to reduce the relative velocity of two masses to accelerate a third with respect to the first and the second.

Here, one air layer is "replaced with a vacuum", and I am saying that dynamic soaring will work, even with that.
So, the ground is not necessary. It "helps" but it is not necessary. So you would just need the blade and the wind.

The relative motion of the wind with respect to the ground is also not necessary, otherwise, dynamic soaring would not work.

This is completely wrong. The relative motion of the wind with respect to the ground is central to the carts functioning and the cart has nothing to do with dynamic soaring.

Tacking applies to all of them. So I canNOT see how they are NOT related.
Also, I'm not talking about the DD"W"FTT"W" cart specifically, but DD"W"FTT"W" in general, which includes dynamic soaring (possible with a helical path so as to emulate one of the blades on the propeller of the DD"W"FTT"W" cart).

And do you think that DD"W"FTT"W" can only happen with sails and propellers? I think just about any two interfaces will do. One of them doesn't have to be "wind". That's my point. I'm saying that DD"W"FTT"W" could done with anything, even with two "solids" if the angles are just right. DD"W"FTT"W" could also happen inside a fluid, where particles in the fluid can be likened to "ships" or "wind".

This is correct but completely contradicting what you said earlier about relative motion. As long as you have two surfaces which are in motion with respect to each other, you could design a vehicle which used leverage to travel faster than its power source.

What I said about relative motion is, "The relative motion of the wind with respect to the ground is also not necessary, otherwise, dynamic soaring would not work."

This is not necessary because what you have instead is relative motion between the wind and the wings of a glider. You only need two things like you said. I did not contradict myself here.

 

[jduffy77]

I said:

Here, one air layer is "replaced with a vacuum", and I am saying that dynamic soaring will work, even with that.
So, the ground is not necessary. It "helps" but it is not necessary. So you would just need the blade and the wind.

I know what you said, its just that you are completely wrong. Your confusion seems to be fairly well entrenched at this point and I do not really know how to help you. At this point I will answer questions if you have any or hopefully others more expert than I am might chime in and help you understand.

 

[kmarinas86]

I said:

Dynamic soaring could also work in the upper atmosphere bordering the vacuum of space, by dipping in and out of it, but you can't give a vacuum a "velocity" with respect to the ground. So you don't even need to reduce the relative velocity of two masses to accelerate a third with respect to the first and the second.

Here, one air layer is "replaced with a vacuum", and I am saying that dynamic soaring will work, even with that.
So, the ground is not necessary. It "helps" but it is not necessary. So you would just need the blade and the wind.

I know what you said, its just that you are completely wrong. Your confusion seems to be fairly well entrenched at this point and I do not really know how to help you. At this point I will answer questions if you have any or hopefully others more expert than I am might chime in and help you understand.

So in other words, you think dynamic soaring cannot work between a vacuum (which lacks a velocity) and the upper atmosphere. Well, I'd like to see proof of that.

 

[spork]

...the cart has nothing to do with dynamic soaring.

I think there's a connection between the two only in that both exploit the energy available at the interface of two media moving relative to one another. In the case of the cart, it's the ground and air. In the case of dynamic soaring, it's two different layers of air separated by a gradient.

The cart uses mechanical means to act as a lever between the two media, while dynamic soaring relies on the inertia of the body to make the connection between the two media.

But you definitely cannot go DDWFTTW using dynamic soaring. And dynamic soaring is definitely not possible between the atmosphere and the vacuum of space.

 

[jduffy77]

So in other words, you think dynamic soaring cannot work between a vacuum (which lacks a velocity) and the upper atmosphere. Well, I'd like to see proof of that.

No, I only said that dynamic soaring has nothing to do with the ddwfttw cart. It is true that both extract energy from the difference in velocity between two masses but that is as far as it goes.

You state that the ddwfttw cart does not need the ground. That is nonsense. There is no shear layer in the air mass the cart is traveling through which can be exploited even if a mechanism existed to do so. The ddwfttw cart is a lever. There most be a fulcrum for the force. The cart uses the ground as a fulcrum.

 

[spork]

So in other words, you think dynamic soaring cannot work between a vacuum (which lacks a velocity) and the upper atmosphere. Well, I'd like to see proof of that.

It cannot. And that's not how proof works. If you think it can be done, it's up to you to tell us how.

 

[kmarinas86]

So in other words, you think dynamic soaring cannot work between a vacuum (which lacks a velocity) and the upper atmosphere. Well, I'd like to see proof of that.

It cannot. And that's not how proof works. If you think it can be done, it's up to you to tell us how.

Well, to me it is no more mysterious to propose this than it is to propose the slingshot effect.

http://www.schoolphysics.co.uk/age14-16/Astronomy/text/Slingshot_/images/1.gif

In the case for the atmosphere interacting with a blade, instead of being pulled, it is being kicked.

http://www.schoolphysics.co.uk/age14-16/Astronomy/text/Slingshot_/images/2.gif

Replace the "train" with the wind, and replace the "ball" with the plane, DDWFTTW cart, or whatever you like. Like what was explained to me a few months ago, the -5 m/s can be created due the effective velocity due to the rotation of the blade and its angle of pitch, making the blade surfaces "appear to move backwards" thus enabling the wind to hit it from the back.

This would also work even if the train were to fly off a cliff. The "ground" does not matter at all.

The proper leverage only serves to make this effect more efficient (I.O.W. to make it easily engineerable). It does not, like you claim, constitute a necessary condition for DDTWFTTW.

 

[jduffy77]

Well, to me it is no more mysterious to propose this than it is to propose the slingshot effect.

http://www.schoolphysics.co.uk/age14-16/Astronomy/text/Slingshot_/images/1.gif

In the case for the atmosphere interacting with a blade, instead of being pulled, it is being kicked.

http://www.schoolphysics.co.uk/age14-16/Astronomy/text/Slingshot_/images/2.gif

Replace the "train" with the wind, and replace the "ball" with the plane, DDWFTTW cart, or whatever you like. Like what was explained to me a few months ago, the -5 m/s can be created due the effective velocity due to the rotation of the blade and its angle of pitch, making the blade surfaces "appear to move backwards" thus enabling the wind to hit it from the back.

This would also work even if the train were to fly off a cliff. The "ground" does not matter at all.

The proper leverage only serves to make this effect more efficient. It does not, like you claim, constitute a necessary condition for DTTWFTTW.

You are wrong, the leverage is central to the carts functioning. A cart could not ddwfttw without the ground any more than a balloon could. Your diagrams above introduced two more scenarios which have absolutely nothing to do with the cart. The cart can travel ddwfttw indefinitely. It is not being assisted by gravity or a diesel engine.

 

[kmarinas86]

You are wrong, the leverage is central to the carts functioning.

That's because the cart is not efficient enough without this leverage, and you wouldn't see DDWFTTW in that case.

A cart could not ddwfttw without the ground any more than a balloon could.

But a balloon still can go DDWFTTW, if it acted like a sailboat and spun like a football.

Your diagrams above introduced two more scenarios which have absolutely nothing to do with the cart. The cart can travel ddwfttw indefinitely. It is not being assisted by gravity or a diesel engine.

Nor is a sailboat.
A balloon can act like sail, albeit, very ineffectively for the purpose of going DDWFTTW.

1) The only reason why DDWFTTW is DDW (in the sense of a straight line) is that the sail flips end over end, forming a helix, and the axis travels parallel to the wind.
2) But all of these examples demonstrate "D"DWFTTW (in the sense of its overall trajectory being parallel to the wind (depending on the frame of reference, path chosen, number of interactions, and so forth)), though not in a straight line.

Has it is been assumed by you all that "DDWFTTW" refers only to the former? I see it as meaning both the former and the latter. This might explain our "disagreement".

 

[jduffy77]

That's because the cart is not efficient enough without this leverage, and you wouldn't see DDWFTTW in that case.

It is not because it is not efficient enough. it is because it is impossible. There could be no mechanism to extract energy.

But a balloon still can go DDWFTTW, if it acted like a sailboat.

But it can't. Maybe now we are getting somewhere. The sailboat needs the water or more importantly the keel.

Nor is a sailboat.
A balloon can act like sail, albeit, very ineffectively for the purpose of going DDWFTTW.

It cannot.

 

[kmarinas86]

It cannot.

What if the "balloon" is shaped like a sailboat?
What if the sailboat is inflatable?
It's still a "balloon".

 

[jduffy77]

What if the "balloon" is shaped like a sailboat?
What if the sailboat is inflatable?
It's still a "balloon".

The craft needs a fulcrum.

 

[kmarinas86]

It is not because it is not efficient enough. it is because it is impossible. There could be no mechanism to extract energy.

http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2011/04/features/faster?page=all

And the balloon-versus-sailing boat hypothesis he came up with took him to another planet altogether: a cylindrical planet entirely covered by water, with a constant wind blowing down its length. Call it "Planet Water-Barrel" and visualise a balloon racing a sailing boat from one end to the other.

The advantage of holding a race on this planet is that because the boat can sail completely around the cylinder, it never has to zigzag to end up at the same end point as the balloon. Instead, the craft can stay on one continuous crosswind heading and spiral all the way around the barrel, ending up at the finish line. On Planet Water-Barrel, the maths simplifies. But forget the maths for a moment and concentrate on the visual picture.

What if the balloon-versus-sailing-boat race ran a down cylindrical planet of much a smaller diameter: Planet Steel-Rod? In that case, the boat would essentially be spinning around its own axis and its sail would suddenly look a lot like a turning propeller blade.

There's no mention of gearing here whatsoever.

The craft needs a fulcrum.

The only "leverage" you would need is at the axis of angular momentum of the spinning prop, corkscrewing plane, or what have you. What "ground" is required here?

 

[jduffy77]

http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2011/04/features/faster?page=all
There's no mention of gearing here whatsoever.

No but the steel rod is required.

The only "leverage" you would need is at the axis of angular momentum of the spinning prop, corkscrewing plane, or what have you. What "ground" is required here?

We were talking about the ability of a balloon which you said could "act like a sail" to travel ddwfttw.

 

[spork]

This is going in some pretty bizarre directions. Until kmarinas understands the basics of the DDWFTTW cart, it's kind of pointless to go off in the direction of slingshot effect, dynamic soaring, etc.

 

[kmarinas86]

No but the steel rod is required.

We were talking about the ability of a balloon which you said could "act like a sail" to travel ddwfttw.

I never said you couldn't attach the balloon to the rod.

In that case, such a rod isn't a equivalent to the "ground", because it is moving with the balloon.

In the DDWFTTW cart, the rod is not moving at the same speed as the ground and the wind.

The friction with ground (or sea) (or rod) is only there to prevent it from veering off course (it increases the effective moment of inertia around that axis). Without such friction, you could use counter-rotating propellers, just like what is done with some toy helicopters and various jet engines. I.e. to cancel the leverage that you don't want or need.

And why does it have to be steel? That makes no sense.
The "rod" itself can be a balloon.

 

[spork]

I never said you couldn't attach the balloon to the rod.

In that case, such a rod isn't a equivalent to the "ground", because it is moving with the balloon.

That won't work either.

In the DDWFTTW cart, the rod is not moving at the same speed as the ground and the wind.

You're getting the analogy badly mixed up.

The ground (or sea) (or rod) is only there to prevent it from veering off course

Definitely wrong.

Without such support, you could use counter-rotating propellers...

You could use counter-rotating props if you like, but they'd still have to work against the ground or some other medium moving relative to the air they're in.

 

[kmarinas86]

You could use counter-rotating props if you like, but they'd still have to work against the ground or some other medium moving relative to the air they're in.

Sure. Each prop has another medium to work with that moves relative to the air it's in. It's called the other prop.
If you don't have the other prop, there is a hub. You can even have a gearing mechanism if you like. But no connection to the ground is necessary.

 

[spork]

Sure. Each prop has another medium to work with that moves relative to the air it's in. It's called the other prop.
If you don't have the other prop, there is a hub. You can even have a gearing mechanism if you like. But no connection to the ground is necessary.

You're just all over the place. How about if we take a single one of your ideas and discuss it until we reach some understanding.

You talked about counter-rotating props. That alone will do you no good in the attempt to go DDWFTTW. Yes, putting one prop in one air-mass and the other in a separate air-mass that moves relative to the first could potentially be used to make a vehicle go DDWFTTW relative to one of those air-masses.

But in reality, you wouldn't use two props, but rather a prop and a turbine.

Of course you could answer this by bringing up railroad cars, balloons, and the slingshot effect. Or we could try and discuss this point until we reach some understanding.