I am a contestant for the M-Prize challenge

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The M-Prize Competition challenges participants to design a spacecraft capable of reaching an altitude of at least 100 km and orbiting Earth nine times, all within a budget of $3,500. Contestants are exploring various designs, including liquid-fueled rockets based on the rockoon concept, which involves launching from a balloon. Some participants express skepticism about the feasibility of the budget, citing high costs associated with rocket components and fuel. The discussion includes humorous and sarcastic remarks about the competition's legitimacy and the challenges of space travel, with some users questioning the qualifications of the competition's organizers. There are also requests for affordable parts and advice on compliance with regulations. Overall, the conversation reflects a mix of enthusiasm, skepticism, and humor regarding the ambitious goals of the competition.
  • #101
signerror said:
This is invalid: you're forgetting that propellant is removed throughout the burn time of a rocket - the mass reaching LEO is much smaller than what is launched.
I'm not forgetting that. That's why I said, "without doing the integral" - that is to say that I'm eyeballing the solution to the differential equation. But even if you assume the final propellant mass is zero, and do the integral, will you be able to cover that order of magnitude shortfall? I doubt it. Include the extra energy needed to overcome drag and the extra mass from the rocket, and it looks even worse than that.
 
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  • #102
Iyafrady said:
Thats why were going to wear protective goggles and gloves.But its not flammable like gasoline!
It is a huge fire hazard, because it is a powerful oxidizer.
Hydrogen peroxide must be transported in polyethylene, stainless steel or aluminium containers. When hydrogen peroxide comes in contact with flammable substances, such as wood, paper, oil or cotton (cellulose), spontaneous ignition may occur. When hydrogen peroxide is mixed with organic matter, such as alcohols, acetone and other ketones, aldehydes and glycerol, heavy explosions may occur.
When hydrogen peroxide comes in contact with substances, such as iron, copper, chromium, lead, silver, manganese, sodium, potassium, magnesium, nickel, gold, platinum, metalloids, metal oxides or metal salts, this may result in powerful explosions. This is why hydrogen peroxide is usually transported in diluted form.

http://www.lenntech.com/water-disinfection/disinfectants-hydrogen-peroxide.htm

250px-Dangclass5_1.png
 
  • #103


Iyafrady said:
Actually hydrogen peroxide is one of the safest propellants available.Its non volatile, non explosive, non inflammable and non toxic product.Its pretty much oxygenated water dude.The most dangerous thing about it is a little bit irritating to the eyes.Its stability also increases with concentration, so its safer to store and transport than gasoline.
This claims seems to be contradicted by the following statement Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, Division of Toxicology
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts174.html

How can hydrogen peroxide affect my health?

Hydrogen peroxide can be toxic if ingested, inhaled, or by contact with the skin or eyes. Inhalation of household strength hydrogen peroxide (3%) can cause respiratory irritation. Exposure to household strength hydrogen peroxide can cause mild ocular irritation. Inhalation of vapors from concentrated (higher than 10%) solutions may result in severe pulmonary irritation.

Ingestion of dilute solutions of hydrogen peroxide may result in vomiting, mild gastrointestinal irritation, gastric distension, and on rare occasions, gastrointestinal erosions or embolism (blockage of blood vessels by air bubbles). Ingestion of solutions of 10-20% strength produces similar symptoms, but exposed tissues may also be burned. Ingestion of even more concentrated solutions, in addition to the above, may also induce rapid loss of consciousness followed by respiratory paralysis.

Eye exposure to 3% hydrogen peroxide may result in pain and irritation, but severe injury is rare. More concentrated solution may result in ulceration or perforation of the cornea. Skin contact can cause irritation and temporary bleaching of the skin and hair. Contact with concentrated solutions may cause severe skin burns with blisters.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This same site also mentions, "Hydrogen peroxide is unstable, decomposing readily to oxygen and water with release of heat. Although nonflammable, it is a powerful oxidizing agent that can cause spontaneous combustion when it comes in contact with organic material."

I'm thinking contestant for 2009 Darwin Award here.
 
  • #104
Iyafrady said:
The chemistry guys here said they can easily distill it to 90% concentration.
Above roughly 70% concentrations, hydrogen peroxide can give off vapor that can detonate above 70 °C (158 °F) at normal atmospheric pressure.This can then cause a boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion (BLEVE) of the remaining liquid. Distillation of hydrogen peroxide at normal pressures is thus highly dangerous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide"
You would need to get a special kind of still. How much will that set you back? $15,800?
 
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  • #105
Gokul43201 said:
I'm not forgetting that. That's why I said, "without doing the integral" - that is to say that I'm eyeballing it. But even if you assume the final propellant mass is zero, and do the integral, will you be able to cover that order of magnitude shortfall? I doubt it. Include the extra energy needed to overcome drag and the extra mass from the rocket, and it looks even worse than that.

Huh? Ignoring air resistance, the integral diverges to infinity as the mass ratio goes to zero. With enough stages, you could launch a rocket to any orbit using any propellant.
 
  • #106
Iyafrady said:
Its non volatile, non explosive, non inflammable and non toxic product.Its pretty much oxygenated water dude.The most dangerous thing about it is a little bit irritating to the eyes.Its stability also increases with concentration, so its safer to store and transport than gasoline.

You may feel like you are already orbiting the Earth, just in too small pieces to be a serious contestant.
 
  • #107
Borek said:
You may feel like you are already orbiting the Earth, just in too small pieces to be a serious contestant.

:smile:
 
  • #108
signerror said:
Huh? Ignoring air resistance, the integral diverges to infinity as the mass ratio goes to zero. With enough stages, you could launch a rocket to any orbit using any propellant.
Oops, that's right. So, all we can say is that ignoring drag and inefficiency in the engine, this sets an upper bound on the mass ratio that is smaller than 10%. If you invert that, it's over 90% fuel - and this number assumes the fuel has no mass, despite it taking up over 90% of the total mass. But that already looks like the typical value for a single stage rocket.
 
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  • #109
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  • #110
This is really fun chatting and getting everyone worked up, but I'm still a little surprised that the OP hasn't been warned (or banned) for trolling yet, especially considering his posts in this and other threads. He's really just making fun of this forum and its members and, although some of the resulting discussions (between experienced pfers) is interesting, I feel that it is somewhat degrading.
 
  • #111
Is this a live thread?

Monroe
N-Prize Team Prometheus
 
  • #112
monroelkjr said:
Is this a live thread?

Monroe
N-Prize Team Prometheus

From what I've read here, no, it does not appear to be a serious thread.
 
  • #113
Humm. There is some interesting chat it appears? The peroxide route is a little off because of the low ISP. I'm willing to discuss this topic if anyones interested. We are a team entered in the N-Prize. www.teamprometheus.org

Monroe
 
  • #114
Welcome, Monroe. If you want to use the forum's notation tools, you can put [ sub ] and [ /sub ] (without spaces) tags around the parts you want to show up as subscripts like Isp It might save confusion for those who are not familiar with the term specific impulse.
 
  • #115
T-1
Thanks! And hey that’s cool I wish the forum on the Space Fellowship had that! So where are we at here? Peroxide is a safe fuel as far a rocket fuel goes. You don’t need 90% to experiment with. You can distill 30% by freezing to 70% and that’s good for experiments. Of course be safe, duh. It is a strong Oxidizer! But this is a physics forum right? Hey if you kill yourself that’s not my fault. A hybrid Peroxide rocket could make orbit (Bi-propellant) with say kerosene. If you don’t understand how to perform experiments with the scientific method don’t bother just shoot yourself and get it over with or find another hobby. I encourage the younger fellows and newbie’s to experiment but first learn safety and how to take notes (at least we can figure out what killed you). Have fun!

Monroe
 
  • #116
monroelkjr said:
Humm. There is some interesting chat it appears? The peroxide route is a little off because of the low ISP. I'm willing to discuss this topic if anyones interested. We are a team entered in the N-Prize. www.teamprometheus.org

Monroe

Welcome to PF Monroe

It's a pretty good bet that people here would welcome discussion by a legit N-Prize contestant. :smile:

Since you're in a competition, how much are you willing to divulge about your team's effort? :wink:
 
  • #117
The points being made by critics of the OP is that the OP lacks credibility as evidenced by tossing out things like "Were going to get the hydrogen peroxide from Walgreens." and the dismissive comments as to hazard posed by Rocket Grade H2O2. I doubt any team will put a nano-satellite in orbit for less than $3500, or £999.99, which is actually about $1467.00 at today's exchange rate.

The cost of the launch, but not ground facilities, must fall within a budget of £999.99. Entrants for the RV Prize may exceed this budget, but must demonstrate recovery of hardware such that the per-launch cost remains within £999.99.
So the cost of the vehicle, payload and fuel should be less than ~$1500.

Call me skeptical.

http://www.n-prize.com/
http://spacefellowship.com/Forum/viewforum.php?f=52


The prizes will be awarded to the first persons or groups to put into orbit around the Earth a satellite with a mass of between 9.99 and 19.99 grams, and to prove that it has completed at least 9 orbits.
 
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  • #118
monroelkjr said:
A hybrid Peroxide rocket could make orbit (Bi-propellant) with say kerosene. If you don’t understand how to perform experiments with the scientific method don’t bother just shoot yourself and get it over with or find another hobby. I encourage the younger fellows and newbie’s to experiment but first learn safety and how to take notes (at least we can figure out what killed you). Have fun!

Monroe
Hey, Monroe, have you looked into the possibility of a central solid-fuel booster flanked by a couple of outboard solid-fuel ramjet boosters? If you could get to adequate ram velocities using a mix of solid fuel and oxidizer in the main booster and then trigger the ramjets, it would save you a lot of weight not to have to carry oxidizer for the ramjets (as long as the craft is still in a dense-enough atmosphere to supply the oxygen.) Just a thought.
 
  • #119
Red
Thanks! Well, considering the effort required to actually accomplish something like this. I can divulge quite a bit. I will help out other guy's that are interested and give information on were to start were to look and questions that have non-hypothetical answers. I don't know everything about anything so you know.

Monroe
 
  • #120
We will permit serious discussion, just not the silliness.

So, Monroe, is this you with the rocket?
http://sandiegospace.org/2009/01/18/n-prize-teams-make-progress/

Maybe BobG can track and verify the 9 orbits for each team. For a price. :biggrin:
 
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  • #121
Astronuc
I understand the skepticism! I laughed the first time I saw the N-Prize. However I'm a great scrounger and I'm also a machinist. If you scrounge well and can make your own fuel and know enough about it, it is possible. Items that are donated and such (raw materials) don't count against you. It could be done for nothing except your time if you had enough of it and nothing better to do. Anyway the exchange rate was locked in at $2000 USD. Also any part of the mission that can be recovered or reused also does not count. I'm not saying it's going to be easy I already know that’s not true. Or cheap either we have invested about $60.000 so far. We are not looking for investor's because it's to hard to convince anyone to invest. We are pretty much on our own.

Monroe
 
  • #122
T-1
One of the teams (Nebula) is using that method. We are solid fuel guys. And we are high altitude launch guys (20 miles).

Aeronuc
No, that’s not me that’s Basil Attal. The team XO.

There is a TV News interview and a radio broadcast in the media section of the website as well as links to other news about the team. We were secluded to speak at the Space Access conference this year however I could not make it.

Monroe
 
  • #123
monroelkjr said:
Astronuc
I understand the skepticism! I laughed the first time I saw the N-Prize. However I'm a great scrounger and I'm also a machinist. If you scrounge well and can make your own fuel and know enough about it, it is possible. Items that are donated and such (raw materials) don't count against you. It could be done for nothing except your time if you had enough of it and nothing better to do. Anyway the exchange rate was locked in at $2000 USD. Also any part of the mission that can be recovered or reused also does not count. I'm not saying it's going to be easy I already know that’s not true. Or cheap either we have invested about $60.000 so far. We are not looking for investor's because it's to hard to convince anyone to invest. We are pretty much on our own.

Monroe
I know of several folks who do high altitude rocketry, I would take those folks seriously if they go after this. I very skeptical of anyone starting from scratch, and really don't know what they are doing. I just hope no one injures/harms themselves or others.

Monroe, can you say anything abou the legal requirements regarding propellant and permissions to launch? I imagine there are safety issues considering one would be lauching through a nation's airspace, and one would not want to shootdown a commerical, private or military aircraft, although the odds of a collision are probably very low.

Also, with regard to the 9.99 - 19.99 gm payload - I'm thinking more space debris here. I don't see anything recoverable for those going for re-entry. Better shield it with HfC or TaC. Not much room for a parachute, eh?
 
  • #124
Hi monroe, this is Iyafrady of team capricorn from the south western US.Do you know how many teams there are in total currently?

We are just beginning the development process at my university and we have several people that are willing to help.
 
  • #125
I still think it's a hoax started by the people who set the task.Even if the team members had all of the necessary expertise I cannot imagine that the task can be achieved within the set budget and time no matter how much stuff is scrounged.Undoubtedly it can be a brilliant educational exercise but my main concern is about safety issues some of which have been expressed here.In this regard I think it should be set as a paper exercise and I also think that the task setters are being irresponsible.What next...build an A bomb with a budget of £200?
 
  • #126
Engineers:

An LEO launch is not a ballistic trajectory. How do you get a 20-gram rocket to control itself? How does it rotate? How does it even know which way it's oriented?

How do you fit a long range radio transmitter, with a power supply, in those same 20 grams?

How do you get the incredible delta-V required without multiple rocket stages? (Has any amateur rocket ever had a staged design?)

How do you expect to vastly outperform every amateur rocket in history, with the same technology and a fraction of the budget? Doesn't prior experience suggest the scale of this problem is wildly greater than what you plan?
 
  • #127
Dadface said:
I still think it's a hoax started by the people who set the task.
No, I think they mean what they say.
N Prize said:
Surely it's impossible?

Very nearly.
http://www.n-prize.com/

It's the enthusiasts who have unwarranted optimism.
 
  • #128
Interestingly, AIAA has no position statement on the N-Prize.
 
  • #129
Dadface said:
I still think it's a hoax started by the people who set the task.Even if the team members had all of the necessary expertise I cannot imagine that the task can be achieved within the set budget and time no matter how much stuff is scrounged.Undoubtedly it can be a brilliant educational exercise but my main concern is about safety issues some of which have been expressed here.In this regard I think it should be set as a paper exercise and I also think that the task setters are being irresponsible.What next...build an A bomb with a budget of £200?

A HW problem??..that is insulting mankind!
 
  • #130
N-Prize competitors. I'd like to see a simple back-of-the-envelope design as proof of principle, that this actually feasible. Don't reveal any of your secrets: just show us that the basic principle is sound, that what appear to be ridiculous constraints can in fact be satisfied, and simultaneously.
 
  • #131
Astronuc
Very valid points you have there. I'll do my best to answer them for you.

Legal: 90% of our effort so far has been in the legal issues.

1) Propellant
ATF Class 4 low explosive permit and storage magazines as well as mobile transport magazines.

2) DOT Hazardous materials transport certifications

3) FAA experimental launch permit and or wavers

4) FCC satellite communications waver

5) DOD flight plan and wavers as well as mission abort certifications

6) Export license. Required to export from the US into space (believe it!)

We had to clear a launch site and provide insurance as well. It's a long story you can dig up at the N-Prize Google group. This is a very simplified list but you get the just of it.

There are links to the legal issues on our site if you need more details than that. You don't have to worry too much about our satellite contributing to space junk it won't orbit long enough to worry about that.

Monroe
 
  • #132
monroelkjr said:
Astronuc

6) Export license. Required to export from the US into space (believe it!)
I believe it. It goes outside the borders and one doesn't know where it will land.

There are links to the legal issues on our site if you need more details than that. You don't have to worry too much about our satellite contributing to space junk it won't orbit long enough to worry about that.

Monroe
Thanks. I just want the OP to appreciate the legal matters involved.

I think the drag at 100 km will certainly limit the number of orbits, especially for 20 g mass.
 
  • #133
Iyafrady said:
A HW problem??..that is insulting mankind!

You make me laugh Iyafrady...enormous chuckles and belly rumbles in abundance.:wink:
 
  • #134
Iyafrady

You go boy! File and get your team up there! You are in for a lot of fun. Don't let anyone stop you. This is the field to be in right now trust me and you will learn a ton. Me personally it has changed my whole life.

Monroe
 
  • #135
Here's one idea:

Echo-1.jpg


The 30.5 meter (100 foot) diameter balloon was made of 0.127 mm (0.005 inch) thick metalized Mylar polyester film and was successfully used to redirect transcontinental and intercontinental telephone, radio, and television signals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_satellite

Maybe you could built a satelloon and track it passively by its microwave reflectivity (radar). A back-of-the-envelope suggests a maximum size of ~20cm, to keep within the weight limit. Not sure if that is detectable.
 
  • #136
Signerror
A simple back-of-the-envelope design. That would be nice. Check out the Team Wiki and the N-Prize document there. I will try to awnser questions for you guys that's the best I can do. You guys are a lively bunch that's cool. I'm glad to meet you all. I'm pretty busy at the moment and will do the best I can to get back to you.

Monroe
 
  • #137
Yep, our satellite for the prize is a 1-meter square maylar cube. Ejected from our tracking satellite that helps us locate the cubesat not to confuse this with a 10cm square "cubesat" design that is pretty common. We intend to launch regular cubesats after the N-Prize mission.

Monroe
 
  • #138
monroelkjr said:
Iyafrady

You go boy! File and get your team up there! You are in for a lot of fun. Don't let anyone stop you. This is the field to be in right now trust me and you will learn a ton. Me personally it has changed my whole life.

Monroe

Thanks man!...Funny how this is the first encouraging post in a 10 page thread.
 
  • #139
Iyafrady said:
10 page thread.

Nine.
 
  • #140
Nine is the magic # for the N-Prize :)

Monroe
 
  • #141
Borek said:
Nine.

still pretty pathetic considering this is a science forum.
 
  • #142
Iyafrady
Hey, If your really going to compete in the N-Prize. Get used to it :)

Monroe
 
  • #143
Iyafrady said:
still pretty pathetic considering this is a science forum.

Perhaps you would happier somewhere else.
 
  • #144
Iyafrady said:
still pretty pathetic considering this is a science forum.
Sorry, but you have been throwing out wild claims including you can achieve orbit with a a hydrogen peroxide thruster (no fuel to oxidize), that hydrogen peroxide is stable and safe to use (no appreciation of the hazards of storing/handling strong oxidizers in the presence of catalyzing metals or combustible materials), and that you could get your hydrogen peroxide from a discount store and have it distilled by the guys in the chemistry department. Really!

When I was a process chemist in a pulp mill, we made our own chlorine dioxide on-site using (in part) Sodium Chlorate. Nobody that hooked up rail-cars, valved the chlorate to the storage tank or Rapson generator, or could be exposed to that oxidizer was allowed to be in the work area unless they were fully suited up, and were hosed down to remove residual chlorate before taking off the protective clothing. There were safety showers and full-immersion dunk tanks everywhere in that area. Twice a year, we were treated to a demonstration of what would happen to a scarecrow with cloth shirt and pants and leather shoes and gloves that had been wetted with chlorate solution and dried. The chief of security would flick a cigarette toward the dummy, and if you were close (maybe 10-15' or so), you'd have to turn away to avoid the worst of the heat. Your poor understanding or the dangers of strong oxidants will not save you should you manage to secure some concentrated hydrogen peroxide. Wood, paper, your clothing, and a wide variety of metals, salts, and corrosion products can all react energetically (even explosively) with that liquid.

Follow some of the links that we have given you in these "negative" posts so you will understand the dangers of working with this stuff. I don't believe that you are actively pursuing this project, especially since you haven't studied the MSDS info for your propellant of choice. The fact that your "specialist" in orbital mechanics has been grounded and can't use his computer is not inspiring, either.
 
  • #145
Yep, rockets as a hobby can kill you and ruin it for everyone elce as well. Thats why I stress the scientific method and note taking. But it's pretty fair the ATF will get you if you don't watch out! You have to know what you are doing and prove it.

Monroe
 
  • #146
Signerror
I just saw the other questions you asked and they are very good ones also. The rocket is launched from @100.000ft (20 miles) this first stage has a 4 motor cluster that fires 2 at a time for 2 stages there are 2 boosters so there are 4 stages there follow? The rocket spins at @300 RPM. There is a horizon sensor that senses the apogee of the rocket and fires the fifth stage; the sensors look out at a 12 degree angle. The satellite is deployed and is spin stabilized and has front facing booster. When the satellite reaches the other side of the world this motor will be facing in the right direction and boost the satellite into a circular orbit. This satellite weighs about 3 pounds and has tracking and telemetry. The N-Prize sat. Is folded up in this small package and is deployed from it. The tracking signal from the main satellite allows us to locate the passive N-Prize satellite. However that’s just for us the haystack radar facility will have no problem locating it.

Monroe
 
  • #147
Monroe to realize this challenge you must remain within budget so one small question...Have you estimated the total transport costs?
 
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  • #148
Astronuc said:
So the cost of the vehicle, payload and fuel should be less than ~$1500.

If ground structures are not in the costs, I think that price could be reached with a space elevator type solution.
 
  • #149
Dadface
The total estimated cost is @$250.000 there are no transport cost the rocket is built in a hanger on site. Don't worry about the rocket cost if you get sponcers for the materials or donations. You just have to prove where you got everything. Hey if you don't want to do it you won't be able too that's for sure. There are ways to do it if you really want to. Otherwise we would'nt be doing it. You have to look into it farther and ask the questions about cost. If you just gloss over the rules you won't get it. Thats all I can say, I've not said this before and I'm not saying it again. So there you go. I don't have any special ties to the prize that help us I've just asked the right questions. The legal issues are the problem. However if you follow the rules and do what's required legaly that can be done as well. It has taken me 8 months of everyday working on the legal issues to get to this point. We are now ready to start building.

Monroe
 
  • #150
Would it be feasible to basically detonate a bomb underneath a very small payload, accelerating it to escape velocity instantly and launching it into orbit? Or perhaps place the explosive underneath a collection of many small payloads, with the hope that at least one of them makes it?
 

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