Induced emf when dropping a magnet into a solenoid

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the phenomenon of induced electromotive force (emf) when a bar magnet is dropped into a solenoid. Participants explore the relationship between the movement of the magnet and the changes in magnetic flux linkage within the solenoid, considering both conceptual and technical aspects of electromagnetic induction.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about how the emf changes as the magnet moves through the solenoid, noting that the magnetic field experiences both increases and decreases at different positions.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of flux linkage, explaining that emf is induced when there is a change in the linkage between the electric circuit and the magnetic field lines.
  • A participant questions whether the emf should become zero when the magnet reaches a certain position, suggesting that there is no net magnetic flux linkage at that point.
  • Another participant challenges the previous claim, arguing that there is still significant flux linkage even when the magnet is inside the solenoid, and clarifies that the absence of emf occurs only when there is no change in flux linkage.
  • One participant notes the importance of distinguishing between the concepts of cutting lines of flux and changes in flux linkage, suggesting that both are valid but should not be conflated.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on when the emf is induced and the role of flux linkage, with some asserting that there is no emf when the magnet is fully inside the solenoid, while others argue that flux linkage remains significant throughout the magnet's descent. The discussion reflects multiple competing perspectives without a clear consensus.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference diagrams to illustrate their points, but there are issues with clarity regarding the positions of the magnet and the corresponding flux linkage. The discussion also highlights the complexity of the concepts involved, including the relationship between flux linkage and the induced emf.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and enthusiasts of electromagnetism, particularly those seeking to understand the principles of electromagnetic induction and the nuances of flux linkage in practical scenarios.

sgstudent
Messages
726
Reaction score
3
I am having some trouble understanding why and how the emf changes when a bar magnet is dropped into a solenoid.

As the magnet moves down (have not entered the solenoid yet) it experences an increase in magnetic field. As it enters the magnet it experiences an increase in magnetic still until it has entered all the way. At which, now at the back there is a decrease in magnetic field while at the front there is an increase, however because in the front there are more field lines overall it is still a increase. Once, it reaches the middle there is no everall change in magnetic field. As it drops down further, i am clueless on what happens. I think that since there are now more coils at the back, so overall there is a decrease in magnetic field.

Here is a diagram of what i think: http://i.imgur.com/feMhv.png

Thanks for the help! :smile:
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Easiest way to understand what's going on is in terms of flux linkage. This is a topological idea. Consider two closed loops, A and B. A represents an electric circuit, B represents magnetic field lines (which are closed loops). If A and B are linked, like adjacent links in a chain, we have flux linkage. If the loops are not linked, we don't. If the loops are unlinked and we link them, an emf is induced in the circuit loop while the linkage is changing. If we unlink them an emf is induced in the opposite direction while the linkage is changing.

On the thumbnail I use this idea to try and explain what's happening in the case of the magnet dropping through a coil.
 

Attachments

  • magnet and sol'd.jpg
    magnet and sol'd.jpg
    21.9 KB · Views: 864
Last edited:
Hi Mr Wood :smile: Thanks for the explanation and diagrams it help me a lot. However, i am still confused about this.

when the magnet reaches this position: http://postimage.org/image/he6l7v6qd/full/, shouldn't the emf induced become zero?
This is because the magnet field lines do not cause any net magnetic flux linkage. And only when the magnet reaches this position:http://postimage.org/image/he6l7v6qd/full/ then a new emf should be induced.

Thanks for the help!
 
I'm a bit confused about your diagrams. Both your links take me to the same pair of diagrams! But in each diagram (the one with the magnet near the top of the solenoid and the one with the magnet near the bottom) there's lots of flux linkage. Are you visualising the turns of the coil and the lines of flux like the links of a chain? [Incidentally it's a good idea in this context to continue the magnetic field lines round inside the magnet, as I did in my diagrams, emphasising that the field lines are themselves closed loops.]

Don't know what you mean by 'not causing any net magnetic flux linkage'. There's plenty of flux linkage in each case. The flux is linked with different turns of the solenoid, but that doesn't matter at all, as all the turns are all in series.

As the magnet goes from the top position to the bottom, the flux linkage doesn't change, so that's why there's no emf while the magnet is inside the coil. Not that there's no flux linkage.
 
hi, sorry my first diagram is the first position i was mentioning while the box is the solenoid. So since there is no change in the flux linkage once it reaches postion 1 from the link to position 2, there will not be any emf produced? Thanks for the help!
 
Some physicists think about the magnet and solenoid situation in terms of cutting of lines of flux. This is absolutely fine, but I chose to discuss in terms of flux linkage, and changes in flux linkage. The two concepts are closely related, but shouldn't be muddled up together. Flux linkage is more versatile, because there are plenty of cases (such as inductors and transformers) where flux linkage changes without obvious cutting of flux, because there's no macroscopic movement of conductors.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
4K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 42 ·
2
Replies
42
Views
4K