Integration without an expression

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding a method to quantify energy transfer between two systems using non-mathematical absorption and drive curves. Participants explore various approaches to integrate these curves without relying on explicit mathematical expressions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests using the area under the curves as a means to estimate energy transfer, considering methods like physically cutting out the curves or scanning them for digital analysis.
  • Another participant proposes using a planimeter or software tools to calculate the area above and below the axis, referencing specific online resources for assistance.
  • A different participant highlights the complexity of the problem, noting the need to compare the absorption curve to another curve to determine the percentage of energy absorbed, requiring analysis over multiple points.
  • One suggestion involves counting non-white pixels in a scanned image to estimate the area, along with counting pixel columns to find curve length.
  • Another participant proposes breaking the curves into smaller sections and approximating each section with a function, then summing the integrals of these sections.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants present multiple competing views on how to approach the problem, and there is no consensus on a single method to integrate the curves or quantify the energy transfer.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the accuracy of various methods, the need for precise comparisons between curves, and the challenges posed by the curves' sharp deviations.

johnintheuk
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I'm trying to find the quantity of energy transferred between two systems. I have an absorption curve and a drive curve, but neither of these follow a mathematical expression, they're random squiggely lines.

I want to use the absorption curves to find out how much of the drive is being transferred. I know one way to do this would be to integrate the curves, but they can't really be approximated by an expression.

How else might I go about it?

I have actually thought about drawing them, then doing the old cutting out and measuring the area trick for a rough estimation. Surely there's something easier and more accurate than that though.

Maybe scan them and use something on the computer to find the enclosed area?

But there's a lot of sharp deviation on the curves, so I'd really need to cut the x-axis up into a lot of sections to get any kind of accuracy whatsoever.

Is there any online software that I can draw the curves in (dragging points), or something like that?
 
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Depending on how it crosses the horizontal axis, you may be able to use a planimeter. Otherwise, scan or trace it into a computer and using http://livedocs.adobe.com/en_US/Photoshop/10.0/help.html?content=WS3D3EF585-502B-49d2-85FF-537E9DC25C21.html or http://www.ma.iup.edu/projects/CalcDEMma/Green/Green.html , you can calculate the area contained above the axis/below the axis and take the difference for the proper integral.
Otherwise, do it the old fashioned way: use graph paper to trace and approximate coordinates and use a numerical integration algorithm to calculate the area.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks slider, although the problem is more complex than just area. I need to reference this curve to another, and then use the second to find the percentage of the first that's being absorbed, and I need to do this along the entire length of the curves, for at least tens of points, preferably more.
 
Last edited:
it might be easier to scan it, and then instead of integrating, just count the amount of non-white pixels over the x-axis. then to find the length of the curve, again, just take the number of columns of pixels.
percentages, can just be calculated.
 
Well, the whole of the line may not have a similar looking function,

But! If you break the line into tiny sub-sections and find the functions

that may match each individual little line, you can simply add all the

integrals of the tiny lines together.

Maybe this will help :)
 

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