Internal energy and total heat of universe

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concepts of internal energy and heat in the context of the universe's expansion, particularly focusing on thermodynamic principles and their application to cosmology.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that since energy is neither created nor destroyed, the change in internal energy (dU) for the universe is zero, leading to the conclusion that heat (Q) must be positive if work (W) is also positive due to the universe's expansion.
  • Another participant challenges the notion of energy conservation at cosmological scales, referencing external sources that argue energy is not conserved in the universe.
  • It is noted that the energy of the universe is not well-defined, with a participant stating that globally conserved energy applies only to specific spacetimes that do not include the standard cosmological model.
  • There is a claim that in typical cosmological models, there is no vacuum surrounding the universe, which raises questions about the nature of work done by the universe.
  • Further clarification is provided that if a vacuum were to exist, the universe would not be performing work on it.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the conservation of energy in the universe, with some supporting the idea of positive heat addition and others contesting the validity of this perspective based on cosmological principles. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views present.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in defining energy at cosmological scales and the implications of expanding universe models on thermodynamic principles. The discussion reflects uncertainty regarding the assumptions underlying energy conservation in cosmology.

CuriousBanker
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Hello. I am starting to learn about thermodynamics. (i'm going to use lower case "d" for delta)

Energy is neither created nor destroyed. So dU = 0 for the universe as a whole.

If the universe is constantly expanding, then it must be doing work on the vacuum around it, right? So W is a positive number

dU = Q - W
0 = Q - a positive number

So Q is a positive number.

So heat is being added to the universe constantly.

Is this correct?
 
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CuriousBanker said:
Hello. I am starting to learn about thermodynamics. (i'm going to use lower case "d" for delta)

Energy is neither created nor destroyed. So dU = 0 for the universe as a whole.

If the universe is constantly expanding, then it must be doing work on the vacuum around it, right? So W is a positive number

dU = Q - W
0 = Q - a positive number

So Q is a positive number.

So heat is being added to the universe constantly.

Is this correct?
Energy is not conserved at cosmological scales

http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2010/02/22/energy-is-not-conserved/
 
CuriousBanker said:
Energy is neither created nor destroyed. So dU = 0 for the universe as a whole.
Unfortunately, the energy of the universe is not a well defined quantity. http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/energy_gr.html

A globally conserved energy is only defined for a class of spacetimes that does not include the usual model of the universe.

CuriousBanker said:
If the universe is constantly expanding, then it must be doing work on the vacuum around it, right?
There is no vacuum around the universe in the usual cosmological models.
 
CuriousBanker said:
must be doing work on the vacuum around it, right?
Dale said:
There is no vacuum around the universe in the usual cosmological models.

And if there were, the universe would not be doing work on the vacuum.
 
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