Ion Behavior in Electric Field

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of ions and electrons in an electric field, particularly in the context of ionization and charge separation. Participants explore the mechanisms of ion creation, the movement of charged particles in an electric field, and the challenges of preventing neutralization of ions while managing the presence of electrons.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Misha proposes that when a gas is ionized in an electric field, positive ions drift toward one plate while electrons drift toward the other, questioning what happens upon their arrival at the plates.
  • Another participant agrees that the charge of the plates would be reduced unless a power source is connected, which would allow for a current to flow.
  • Misha inquires about methods to create ions and separate them from electrons without allowing neutralization, raising questions about the role of electric potential versus sparks in ion creation.
  • A participant suggests using a hole in the cathode to allow ions to escape but acknowledges the challenges posed by vacuum conditions and other issues.
  • Misha expresses a desire to create ions in a chamber and remove electrons using a positively charged plate, noting concerns about the repulsion of ions and the pressure increase in the chamber.
  • Another participant mentions the existence of ion traps that utilize magnetic fields, but notes that they operate at much lower pressures than atmospheric pressure.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility of separating ions and electrons without neutralization, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the best methods to achieve this separation.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss various assumptions about the behavior of ions and electrons in electric fields, the implications of using barriers, and the conditions under which ionization occurs, but do not resolve these complexities.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying plasma physics, electrical engineering, or anyone involved in experimental setups related to ion behavior in electric fields.

Misha Kuznetsov
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If a gas is ionized using a sufficiently strong electric field (created by two plates, and where the gas is the medium in between), the positive ions would drift toward one plate while the electrons would be attracted to the other. What would happen when the electrons and ions reach the corresponding plates. Would the electrons be absorbed by the positive one and the ions neutralize at the negative one?

-Misha
 
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Yes.
This reduces the charge of the plates a bit, unless you have some power source connected (then you get a small current).
 
Okay. Is there a way to create the ions, and then to separate the electrons and ions by using an electric field, but without letting the ions neutralize?

Also, when a discharge occurs, is it the electric potential that creates ions or the actual spark?
 
You can have a hole in the cathode to allow some ions to shoot through. Will be tricky with vacuum and other issues. What do you want to do?

Misha Kuznetsov said:
Also, when a discharge occurs, is it the electric potential that creates ions or the actual spark?
You can have field ionization without sparks, but sparks are very effective at creating ions as well.
 
I want to make ions in a chamber. Then remove the electrons somehow, I was thinking that I could just have a positively charged plate to absorb them. The ions would repel one another and the pressure in the chamber would increase. So I don't think having a hole in the cathode would work very well for that.

The problem I'm having is that I can't let the ions neutralize, yet I can't use a barrier that would prevent a spark.
 
There are ion traps, but they work with magnetic fields and the pressure is tiny compared to atmospheric pressure.
 

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