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Happiness
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In other words, does there exist, for an electron, a definite direction in physical space such that a measurement of its spin along that direction always give spin up, 100% of the time?
Happiness said:does there exist, for an electron, a definite direction in physical space such that a measurement of its spin along that direction always give spin up, 100% of the time?
I would say that if you have an electron and measure its spin then "100% of the time" makes no sense.Happiness said:In other words, does there exist, for an electron, a definite direction in physical space such that a measurement of its spin along that direction always give spin up, 100% of the time?
There's always a direction along which the spin is definitively up or down for a spin-1/2 particle. As @PeterDonis said this fails once the particle is entangled.Happiness said:In other words, does there exist, for an electron, a definite direction in physical space such that a measurement of its spin along that direction always give spin up, 100% of the time?
What about an electron in a mixed state?DarMM said:There's always a direction along which the spin is definitively up or down for a spin-1/2 particle. As @PeterDonis said this fails once the particle is entangled.
It's also special to spin-1/2. For spin-1 particles there are states where the particle is not definitively aligned in any direction.
Also doesn't have a definite alignment in any direction.PeroK said:What about an electron in a mixed state?
Spin 1/2 is described by an irreducible non-trivial representation of su(2). The Lie algebra su(2) has only one Casimir operator, ##\hat{\vec{s}}^2## with eigenvalues ##s(s+1)## (##s \in \{0,1/2,\ldots \}##). Thus each representation of su(2) is characterized by the eigenvalues of this Casimir operator.Happiness said:In other words, does there exist, for an electron, a definite direction in physical space such that a measurement of its spin along that direction always give spin up, 100% of the time?
How does entanglement cause a loss of the definite direction? Suppose two free electrons are both spin up vertically. They come together and become entangled. Why aren’t they still remain as both spin up?PeterDonis said:For a single free electron that is not entangled with anything else, yes, your statement is correct.
But that is pretty much the only case where it is. If the electron is entangled with anything else, in general it won't have a definite spin state, so your statement will not be true. And actual electrons are almost always entangled with something else. For example, an electron in a hydrogen atom is entangled with the proton.
You are getting confused between a state and the description of that state in a given basis.Happiness said:How does entanglement cause a loss of the definite direction? Suppose two free electrons are both spin up vertically. They come together and become entangled. Why aren’t they still remain as both spin up?
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Consider a system of two electrons in the state |11> (4.177). Both are spin up. But if I turn my measurement device upside down, then would both electrons be measured spin down? But that state is a different state, |1-1>, implying that I could just change the state by turning my measurement device, an absurd conclusion. But if we take the view that turning the measurement device does not change the measured spin to down, but still spin up, then that spin up is up with respect to what, if we can’t take reference to the measurement device?
And for the state |10>, how can the total spin be 1, when it is guaranteed that the electrons always have opposite spins? Is it that before measurement, both electrons’ spin are in the same direction, hence the total spin adds up to one, but during measurement, the measurement process flips one of the electron spin? But how do you decide which electron to flip?
In an entangled two-electron state, the single electron also has a definite state, which is given by the partial trace of the stat. op. over the other electron. This reduced state for a subsystem is in the case that the complete system is in a spin-entangled pure state, a mixed state. That's one of the special properties of entanglement!Happiness said:How does entanglement cause a loss of the definite direction? Suppose two free electrons are both spin up vertically. They come together and become entangled. Why aren’t they still remain as both spin up?
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Consider a system of two electrons in the state |11> (4.177). Both are spin up. But if I turn my measurement device upside down, then would both electrons be measured spin down? But that state is a different state, |1-1>, implying that I could just change the state by turning my measurement device, an absurd conclusion. But if we take the view that turning the measurement device does not change the measured spin to down, but still spin up, then that spin up is “up” with respect to what, if we can’t take reference to the measurement device?
And for the state |10>, how can the total spin be 1, when it is guaranteed that the electrons always have opposite spins? Is it that before measurement, both electrons’ spin are in the same direction, hence the total spin adds up to 1, but during measurement, the measurement process flips one of the electron spin? But how do you decide which electron to flip? But flipping anyone electron will still seem to make the total spin after measurement become 0 instead. So it’s puzzling how the total spin could be 1.
I don’t really understand this. But are you trying to say that each electron in a two-electron system still has a definite state?vanhees71 said:In an entangled two-electron state, the single electron also has a definite state, which is given by the partial trace of the stat. op. over the other electron. This reduced state for a subsystem is in the case that the complete system is in a spin-entangled pure state, a mixed state. That's one of the special properties of entanglement!
The state ##|\Psi \rangle=|\uparrow,\uparrow \rangle## is not a spin-entangled state since it's a product state. The pure state of the two-spin systems is ##\hat{\rho}=|\Psi \rangle \langle \Psi|##. In this case the partial trace is of course a pure state,
$$\hat{\rho}_2=\mathrm{Tr}_1 \hat{\rho} =\sum_{i,j,k \in \{\uparrow,\downarrow \}} |j \rangle \langle ij|\hat{\rho}|ik \rangle \langle k|=|\uparrow \rangle \langle \uparrow |.$$
For the electron in a ground-state hydrogen atom, since there is no definite direction for its spin, does it mean that the probability of measuring spin up and down are both half, regardless of the direction of measurement?PeterDonis said:For a single free electron that is not entangled with anything else, yes, your statement is correct.
But that is pretty much the only case where it is. If the electron is entangled with anything else, in general it won't have a definite spin state, so your statement will not be true. And actual electrons are almost always entangled with something else. For example, an electron in a hydrogen atom is entangled with the proton.
Happiness said:I’m trying to figure out when two electrons come together and get entangled, which state, |11>, |10>, |1-1> or |00>, the resultant system would be in.
Happiness said:I’m trying to figure out when two electrons come together and get entangled, which state, |11>, |10>, |1-1> or |00>, the resultant system would be in.
Happiness said:For the electron in a ground-state hydrogen atom, since there is no definite direction for its spin, does it mean that the probability of measuring spin up and down are both half, regardless of the direction of measurement?
Happiness said:if there is no definite direction, does this violate the conservation of information?
Happiness said:Consider two identical protons A and B. A is approached by a "spin up" electron from the bottom, while B is approached by a "spin down" electron from the right. Clearly, these two hydrogen atoms are formed from different initial states. If they end up having the same final state, both with no definite spin direction, then where does the information about the initial spin go?
Vanadium 50 said:A spin 1/2 particle has total angular momentum √3/2. At most 1/2 points in any given direction, so its spin is most assuredly not in some definite direction.
If you haven't already done so, you might want to google for "Clebsch-Gordan coefficients" - spin doesn't combine the way you'd intuitively expect.Happiness said:I suspect when two up electrons come together, the system will be in...
I'm using the same notation as 4.177 and 4.178. So according to them, |11>, |10> and |1-1> are the triplet, |00> is the singlet state, and the symmetric or antisymmetric requirement is already taken care of, right?PeterDonis said:It depends on how they are entangled. There are four basis states for the Hilbert space of a two-electron system if we are only looking at the spin part of the state, three called "triplet" and one called "singlet". None of the ones you wrote down are among them; you forgot that electrons are indistinguishable so the spin part of the two-electron wave function has to be either symmetric (if the position/momentum part is antisymmetric) or antisymmetric (if the position/momentum part is symmetric).
Happiness said:I'm using the same notation as 4.177 and 4.178. So according to them, |11>, |10> and |1-1> are the triplet, |00> is the singlet state, and the symmetric or antisymmetric requirement is already taken care of, right?
vanhees71 said:No, this is one of the triplet states. The singlet-state ket is
$$\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} (|10 \rangle-|01 \rangle).$$
Indeed, the socalled "spin-direction" is actually the axis of precession of the total spin, where the total spin is given by ##s=s^x+s^y+s^z## as shown in the figure below for a single spinor ##\xi##Vanadium 50 said:A spin 1/2 particle has total angular momentum √3/2. At most 1/2 points in any given direction, so its spin is most assuredly not in some definite direction.
The representations of the proper orthochronous Lorentz group of course stay the same in the sense that they are replaced by equivalent real matrices.vanhees71 said:Well, SO(4) is not SO(3) nor SU(2). The fundamental representation of SU(2) or its extensions via complexification to ##\mathrm{SL}(2,\mathbb{C})## are still the fundamental building blocks of the representations of the proper orthochronous Lorentz group, i.e., one of the fundamental corner stones of the Standard Model of HEP physics.
An electron's spin is a fundamental property that describes its intrinsic angular momentum. It is a quantum mechanical property and is always present, even when the electron is at rest.
No, an electron's spin can be in any direction. It is a quantum mechanical property and can exist in a superposition of states, meaning it can be in multiple directions at the same time.
Yes, an electron's spin can change direction through interactions with other particles or through external forces. This is known as spin flipping.
An electron's spin can be measured using a device called a Stern-Gerlach apparatus, which uses a magnetic field to separate the spin states of the electron.
An electron's spin has important implications in many areas of physics, including quantum mechanics, atomic and molecular physics, and solid state physics. It also plays a crucial role in technologies such as magnetic storage and quantum computing.